Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

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dud
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Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby dud » Tue May 23, 2017 10:39 pm

sorry for the vague title, but i didn't want it to be spoiler-y

it's hard to get a single discussion going in the main threads because there's a lot going on all at once, so i'm making this thread to discuss any and all theories / speculation (rather than just personal impressions) about the rest of season 3, although i'm particularly interested in mapping out the relationships between bad coop / phillip jefferies / bill hasting's assistant / briggs / nyc / vegas / south dakota:

what we know:
-sam says some anonymous billionaire owns the room with the box in nyc
-ben horne refers to 'our friends from new york' staying at the great northern in his scene with jerry
-bad coop tells phillip (or someone impersonating phillip) 'i missed you in new york'. who owns the nyc room: phillip or bad coop?
-patrick fischler character hands his employee money and says 'tell her she has the job' who is 'she', darya? bill hasting's assistant betty? judy? does he work for phillip?
-jefferies hires ray and darya to take out bad coop
-bad coop wants info from ray on hasting's assistant betty
-bad coop's interrogation scene...'i've left messages' and he needs to be debriefed 'so phillip knows it's safe'
-albert told phillip that cooper needed to know the identity of their man in columbia, that man winds up dead. killed by jefferies or bad coop?
-hasting's secretary betty (and her information) is brought up again in the hotel room by bad coop in regards to ray & daria's phone call
-the night of the murder hasting's drove 'his assistant betty' home after a school meeting, and when he remembers this detail he get visibly agitated

what is the relationship between bad coop and phillip?
what is the significance of betty?
who owns the room in nyc?
who is patrick fischler's character's boss, and who is he hiring?

anyone make any connections? very curious about this

also: very curious about jacoby and his shovels lol, any thoughts on that one?
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Here Comes That Bob
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Here Comes That Bob » Tue May 23, 2017 11:23 pm

Okay I'll shoot. I think the boss of Patrick Fischler's character is someone who has the absolute knowledge of the Black Lodge and the situation between the two doppelgangers. Therefore I think that the same person knew about the time when the transition between the two doppelgangers was suppose to happen. My speculation is that the woman who got the job was none other than the Naomi Watts's character. I have no idea what the motivation is behind this but I have a feeling she was hired to play Coop/Dougie's wife by someone.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Here Comes That Bob » Tue May 23, 2017 11:36 pm

I think that the mysterious owner of the glass box could well easily be Patrick's boss. If the same person is well informed about the mythology as I assume, I think the person could be someone associated with the Major Briggs and Windom Earle and the Project Blue Book.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Wed May 24, 2017 2:52 am

That main thread is polluted with arguments over the merits of the show and there's little about the content.

Random things:

Opening scene in Black & White seems like a different place (as others have said)
The scratching sound that comes from the Victrola is it heard again right before the gray thing comes into glass box?
The gray thing in the glass box, body of a woman, with a different head? (mirror image of the body in the apartment?)
The gray thing in the glass box, same thing seen by Douglas Milford, Richard Nixon, and Jackie Gleason in Secret History?
Evil coop has some really advanced electronics (perhaps stolen from Major Briggs?) being able to record a phone call at distance, a data dump of the prison, hack FBI, pretty wild stuff.
Somehow evil Cooper "grew" another Doppelganger that was sucked into the lodge instead of him. "Dougie" was wearing the ring, and his arm went numb. In the lodge it seemed to turn into one of the electric tree brains.
Are the people trying to assassinate Dougie actually trying to kill Cooper, or was someone trying to prevent Dougie from going into the lodge in Evil Coop's place?
In Space, the face of Major Briggs says Blue Rose, then before Coop escapes, there's a blue rose on a table in the room with The American Girl. (played by Phoebe Augustine).
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby StrangerDanger » Wed May 24, 2017 6:57 am

dud wrote: i'm particularly interested in mapping out the relationships between bad coop / phillip jefferies / bill hasting's assistant / briggs / nyc / vegas / south dakota

I have to confess l'm finding it impossible to fully get what's going on, l need subtitles for the show, and can't get them :( Roll on Christmas and the DVD release.

Regarding NYC, Vegas, South Dakota, Twin Peaks:

A straight line from Twin Peaks to NYC passes through North Dakota. Maybe could be South Dakota if a globe is used rather than flat projection?

A straight line from NYC to Vegas (flat projection) passes through Colorado Springs, which is some kind of important military HQ (l remember a nice old hippie giving me a lift from Keystone to Estes Park and we passed through Colorado Springs and he told me a load of stuff that l've now forgotten). Possible Blue Book connection but l think this l'm clutching at straws.

It's just that they showed the South Dakota place on a map, so maybe they wanted us to join dots on a map.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby frompureair » Wed May 24, 2017 7:54 am

Lillard also reminded me a lot of Leland/Bob during the prison scene...the swelling noise while he brushed his head that suddenly stopped when his wife entered. How he seemed innocent claiming the whole thing was a dream. Perhaps he too was possessed at some point but by who? My first thoughts were that Bob had left dopplecoop at some point and was fire walking into other bodies but nothing backs that up, other than the confirmation of Cob killing his wife which proves that he knows the couple. He could have framed the principle after he got all the info he needed on Betty who could have fled town after Garland was murdered...so many theories.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby krishnanspace » Wed May 24, 2017 9:13 am

frompureair wrote:Lillard also reminded me a lot of Leland/Bob during the prison scene...the swelling noise while he brushed his head that suddenly stopped when his wife entered. How he seemed innocent claiming the whole thing was a dream. Perhaps he too was possessed at some point but by who? My first thoughts were that Bob had left dopplecoop at some point and was fire walking into other bodies but nothing backs that up, other than the confirmation of Cob killing his wife which proves that he knows the couple. He could have framed the principle after he got all the info he needed on Betty who could have fled town after Garland was murdered...so many theories.

He hasnt got the info.Ray(the other with daria) has the info.But he is in prison,so thats why Bob Cooper downloaded the prison blue prints and he was heading there.Important question is what info does a High School Principal have?We know that the information are geographical coordinates,but pointing to where?
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Ashok » Wed May 24, 2017 9:17 am

HagbardCeline wrote:Are the people trying to assassinate Dougie actually trying to kill Cooper, or was someone trying to prevent Dougie from going into the lodge in Evil Coop's place?


I was wondering this as well. I was confused if there is an unknown party that is actively trying to assassinate the Cooper doppelgängers? Or is all this just coincidental? The Naomi Watts character seemed relieved to see all the money Dougie won, so perhaps Dougie simply owed money to some dangerous criminals?
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Wed May 24, 2017 9:23 am

I initially assumed Dougie was in deep on gambling debts and that was who was after him. But it could well have been people sent by the Bad Dale - he does say he needs two men on a job. That could be it: Take out the real Coop in Dougie's place.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby KHAN Games » Wed May 24, 2017 9:39 am

StrangerDanger wrote: (l remember a nice old hippie giving me a lift from Keystone to Estes Park and we passed through Colorado Springs and he told me a load of stuff that l've now forgotten).


You guys must have went the most roundabout way possible. Keystone and Estes Park aren't even close to Colorado Springs.

But yes, there is a secret military base inside the mountain in Colorado Springs.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/lifesty ... ce-station
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby chromereflectsimage » Wed May 24, 2017 9:42 am

Anyone think the Vegas reality of Dougie may not be real?

Spoiler:
It was mentioned some actors play multiple roles. Maybe these people are actually manifestations of people in Twin Peaks?
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby StrangerDanger » Wed May 24, 2017 10:01 am

KHAN Games wrote:
StrangerDanger wrote: (l remember a nice old hippie giving me a lift from Keystone to Estes Park and we passed through Colorado Springs and he told me a load of stuff that l've now forgotten).


You guys must have went the most roundabout way possible. Keystone and Estes Park aren't even close to Colorado Springs.

But yes, there is a secret military base inside the mountain in Colorado Springs.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/lifesty ... ce-station


Yeah, it was a roundabout way. Actually, now that l think of it, it was Silverthorne to Boulder? It was so long ago but yeah it was "the scenic [very quiet] route" - inadvisable with complete strangers that have a pickup truck full of heavy rusty tools that are needed just to open the passenger door from the inside ... but he was a fantastic guy!

Edit: just checked map, and yeah Colorado Springs is totally other side of Colorado from my locales. Hmmm ... l'm not sure how it happened but the guy said some things about Colorado Springs and something military. This was wayyy back in the 1990s (l'm not from USA).

Air force station ... Blue Book.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby TimPatton » Wed May 24, 2017 12:57 pm

Did anyone get the impression that the scene in the episode 3, where the eyeless woman interacts with Cooper touching his body and face in glitchy way, represents the moment in dimensionless/timeless lodge when Evil Cooper creates the DougCooper manifestation to the real world?
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby AXX°N N. » Wed May 24, 2017 1:34 pm

Wow, I guess people really are besotted with arguing the merits -- there' so little discussion here!

I also assumed that the odd device Evil Coop uses was stolen from Briggs, because TSHOTP makes an effort to establish the listening station as a location with state-of-the-art doodads. Although I have to wonder if Coop is manipulating the device in some odd way, or perhaps using Coop's personal info to access systems.

I haven't looked through the main thread for this yet, so it might have been brought up before ... but while watching, I was under the impression that it was Brigg's body that was the lower half of the composite corpse in the hotel. How that could be possible, since it should have decomposed more, or why this is the case, escapes me, but it IS true that Major Brigg's disembodied head floats in space in Ep 3, and that it appears (correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption) that Brigg's prints are blocked as being classified.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Fire-blog-with-me » Wed May 24, 2017 1:36 pm

dud wrote:also: very curious about jacoby and his shovels lol, any thoughts on that one?


In terms of WHY jacoby is manufacturing golden shovels, I have not parsed that out yet. I plan to soon though but there's a bit more on my mind for the next few days. But in the meantime I have some information on WHAT the golden shovels are thematically.

Mark Frost mentioned in an interview (which I can't find right now but I know I read it several times around November of last year I think) that one of the major themes that he and David Lynch were exploring was the ruthless passage of time and how that relates to our mortalities, definitely as individuals and as a collective humanity perhaps too.

With that in mind, Golden Shovels have several layers

The Secret History of Twin Peaks (and by extension parts of the old Twin Peaks and much of Mark Frost's fascinations) deals extensively with the dual Lodges of Freemasonry and the Illuminati. Within the Freemasonic visual language, shovels are associated within a larger set of motifs correlating to graves and burials. These grave/burial symbols are reminders of the insurmountable and inevitable truth of mortality, that death is a vital part of life. The shovel, specifically, being the tool of burial--used to dig the grave etc.

Shovels also have another Masonic symbol disassociated from burial. Taken from a Masonic wiki: "An instrument used to remove rubbish. It is one of the working-tools of a Royal Arch Mason, and symbolically teaches him to remove the rubbish of passions and prejudices, that he may be fitted, when he thus escapes from the captivity of sin, for the search and the reception of Eternal Truth and Wisdom." This fits thematically with what we know of Jacoby's arc from the original series and Secret History and offers a glimpse into his potential new worldview in light of his experiences and previous philosophies from 25 years ago.

The color gold has several meanings I don't think I need to ramble on about but just to give a brief mention of the myriad associations with it... gold has been known to represent justice and virtue (the idea of being Golden as an adjective), prestige and luxury, transcendence and epiphany, goodness, etc. but also understand that gold has another symbolic and historical connection (one specifically referring to American history , a subject which we know is very important to Mark Frost): the Gilded Age of America, gilded meaning something that is gold but only as a veneer (i.e. Not true gold, for instance... a regular shovel painted gold rather than a true solid gold shovel... hmmm gets you thinking eh?). Essentially the short history lesson is that the Gilded Age was a time when everything in america seemed golden but really had lots of problems underneath the surface. If anyone is interested in this, I can elaborate more on this era of American history and how it could relate thematically to the show (Twin Peaks has established an MO with this such as the Truman brothers! Harry S. and Franklin Roosevelt)

And lastly, Golden Shovel is a literary reference--another Frostian characteristic what with frost's incredible literate personality. The Golden Shovel is a poetic form in which one takes lines from a previously written poem that one admires and then uses the words of the line(s) as the last words in their new poem, simultaneously creating something new but also homaging and paying tribute to what came before. This reminds me of how the new Twin Peaks The Return is, a new entity that is part of a larger saga/legacy, honoring the old Twin Peaks and even Lynch's larger oeuvre with something wholly it's own beast.

And lastly, the Golden Shovel form is a reference to and borne from a poem called We Real Cool. That poem deals with mortality of young men who are inevitably going to face early deaths from their dangerous and hedonistic lifestyle, but through the poetic form (and art in general) will be immortalized even after they have died. Sounds pretty relevant to Coop and the Twin Peaks saga as we know it?

Anyway that's it for now.

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