Robert Engels or Harley Peyton

[LostInTheMovies]

First I would like to say Hi! Long time lurker but first time poster. In terms of engagement with the wider fandom, most of my interactions and output/input has been on tumblr (same URL as my username here in case anyone was interested).

So in terms of Robert Engels or Harley Peyton, I think it would be good to assemble a bit of data (coming from a biochemistry/science background I like to do this sort of stuff haha)...

Love this post. Welcome to dugpa!

Thank you! It's good to see a few familiar faces here from tumblr such as yourself and laughingpinecone!

Joel, im curious about your take on the matter: Peyton or Engels?

Hm, I feel like I have a personal soft-spot for Engels' output since he co-wrote FWWM and also wrote the hugely underrated ep. 4, which I always want to go to the mat for. And I like the areas he tends to focus on the most: the teen angst over Laura's legacy and the supernatural stuff (esp Mike). There's a real casual, sink-into-this-world vibe to his work that I love. And a very Hawksian feel esp in ep. 4 where he has those great moments of male and female camaraderie (I always wish Donna & Audrey had more scenes together). When I first rewatched the series and paid attention to writers, I noticed Peyton seemed to gravitate more toward the snarky, meta-playful aspects of the series which I appreciated but weren't necessarily my favorite bits.

On the other hand, Peyton feels like *objectively* the best. He certainly contributed more to the series than anyone but Lynch/Frost; in terms of sheer direct writing output more than even Frost. Plus, ep. 6 is my favorite non-Lynch episode of the entire series; at first, I kind of dismissed it but it's grown on me since to the point where I consider it the best example for how Twin Peaks could thrive as a week-to-week serialized story that was fun and engaging in a conventional but still unique way (only ep. 2 tops it in that sense, but it's also more of an exception since it has elements that transcend that as well as elements that embody it). And it's also hard not to appreciate how lucid he is on the experience of making Twin Peaks, far more than any other participant I can think of (Engels is the exact opposite). On the other hand, his political takes on Twitter are terrible.

Ultimately, I would probably go with Peyton. But maybe feel more of a personal connection w/ Engels' work.

[LostInTheMovies]

On another note, I always feel it would be immensely helpful to have a scene-by-scene breakdown of who wrote what in the Peyton-Engels episodes (and of course in the collaborations with Frost too, plus who suggested what behind the scenes, which we've got a bit of). I've heard they wrote separately rather than together and I think parsing that would be fascinating.

[Fire-blog-with-me]

Oh man, I would love to have the logistics of the creative writing side of things. Imagine having access to not only a list of who conceived/contributed what, but all the proposed ideas/concepts/drafts that fell to the wayside. Proposed outline for Audrey+Coop romance with a broad strokes episode by episode breakdown, original season 3 plans, etc. but of course that's just me having a pipe dream (what else is new Sean haha)

I agree it's a hard choice between the two. For me it really depends on my mood and what I've been craving for.

Do I want really fun snappy dialogue, playful meta, witty and stylish, pop culture zeitgeist flair? Peyton definitely. Look no further than Episodes 3, 6 and 9 for that with a decent showing in Ep 20 compared to other episodes in that stretch. Those solo episodes contain some of the most poppy, culturally charged iconographies and scenes.

Do I want something more casual in its pace and relaxed in its dialogue? Maybe with some more focus on the teen drama and more horror sci fi mythos? Engels is my guy. So much great dialogue and scenes and concepts that ease the viewer in gently.

I think another fun discussion would be to dissect the merits of the misc writing staff: Tricia Brock, Scott Frost, Barry Pullman. Jerry Stahl can be ignored for the most part lol for reasons I think we can agree upon. I always wonder how much those writers contributed beyond their scripts. Did any concepts originate from them? I often forget about these writers when I think/discuss the series but I want to always give each contributor their due.

[Agent Earle]

Truth be told, I miss some of the Engels/Peyton touch in the new season...

[DeerMeadowRadio]

Oh man, I would love to have the logistics of the creative writing side of things. Imagine having access to not only a list of who conceived/contributed what, but all the proposed ideas/concepts/drafts that fell to the wayside. Proposed outline for Audrey+Coop romance with a broad strokes episode by episode breakdown, original season 3 plans, etc. but of course that's just me having a pipe dream (what else is new Sean haha).

I talked to Harley Peyton for my podcast and specifically tried to get to where the various ideas came from and with a few exceptions it seemed like most came from Lynch and Frost (Civil War Ben, I am looking at you, Mark Frost). Peyton did pitch them the Harold Smith character and likely James/Evelyn Marsh and teenage Nadine. Other than that I think the story arcs (even the less celebrated ones) pretty much came from Lynch and Frost. How they were implemented is another matter... think the similar plots of The Marsh Saga vs. Lost Highway.

I asked him about things he suggested that weren't included and the only thing he remembered was an idea to do an entire episode set in the diner. He said that Lynch and Frost didn't really need a lot of help coming up with story ideas!

Peyton also indicated they didn't have any kind of detailed breakdown of Audrey/Cooper, but that it would have been less than a conventional romance.

I think another fun discussion would be to dissect the merits of the misc writing staff: Tricia Brock, Scott Frost, Barry Pullman. Jerry Stahl can be ignored for the most part lol for reasons I think we can agree upon. I always wonder how much those writers contributed beyond their scripts. Did any concepts originate from them? I often forget about these writers when I think/discuss the series but I want to always give each contributor their due.

I don't think so...ideas, to include beats to hit on each scene came from Lynch and Frost and both reviewed and provided feedback to every script, with Frost pretty much providing the final drafts.

[Agent Earle]

I talked to Harley Peyton for my podcast and specifically tried to get to where the various ideas came from and with a few exceptions it seemed like most came from Lynch and Frost (Civil War Ben, I am looking at you, Mark Frost). Peyton did pitch them the Harold Smith character and likely James/Evelyn Marsh and teenage Nadine. Other than that I think the story arcs (even the less celebrated ones) pretty much came from Lynch and Frost. How they were implemented is another matter... think the similar plots of The Marsh Saga vs. Lost Highway.

I asked him about things he suggested that weren't included and the only thing he remembered was an idea to do an entire episode set in the diner. He said that Lynch and Frost didn't really need a lot of help coming up with story ideas!

Hmmm. Very interesting data! It sheds new light on the oft-told Lynch-alienated-from-his-own-series schtik that's been going around for ages. So, given what you just revealed, Lynch's recent trashing of S2 pretty much means he's trashing himself as well, eh?

[DeerMeadowRadio]

My feeling is that Lynch was around and providing feedback but not guiding the show. Previously Frost was doing that and because of their relationship things went smoothly. When Harley Peyton assumed showrunner status, while Frost was working on Storyville, he and Lynch did not click in the same way and that's where some of the problems happened.

[Fire-blog-with-me]

My feeling is that Lynch was around and providing feedback but not guiding the show. Previously Frost was doing that and because of their relationship things went smoothly. When Harley Peyton assumed showrunner status, while Frost was working on Storyville, he and Lynch did not click in the same way and that's where some of the problems happened.

Oh that actually sheds a lot of insight into Season 2. I personally enjoy it more than most but I can admit there were problems, and from all I've heard about Peyton and Lynch's working relationship that makes sense. I really should buy Reflections to get more insight into the BTS anecdotes.

I'm gonna check out your podcast! Any plans on interviewing other writers from the series (maybe Engels, who is not as prolific in interviews as Peyton)?

Also, @ Deer Meadow Radio, i don't remember if you mentioned your thoughts on the Peyton vs Engels topic of the thread lol.

[DeerMeadowRadio]

I just listened to a new Twin Peaks Unwrapped podcast with Peyton and you can still sense his old issues with Lynch...yes, Reflections is amazing...a must buy.

I would love to interview Engels or Frost (came close to getting one of these guys, so fingers crossed). RE: Engels vs. Peyton, that would be like choosing between Lynch and Frost...can't do it!

My feeling is that Lynch was around and providing feedback but not guiding the show. Previously Frost was doing that and because of their relationship things went smoothly. When Harley Peyton assumed showrunner status, while Frost was working on Storyville, he and Lynch did not click in the same way and that's where some of the problems happened.

Oh that actually sheds a lot of insight into Season 2. I personally enjoy it more than most but I can admit there were problems, and from all I've heard about Peyton and Lynch's working relationship that makes sense. I really should buy Reflections to get more insight into the BTS anecdotes.

I'm gonna check out your podcast! Any plans on interviewing other writers from the series (maybe Engels, who is not as prolific in interviews as Peyton)?

Also, @ Deer Meadow Radio, i don't remember if you mentioned your thoughts on the Peyton vs Engels topic of the thread lol.