Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[dugpa]

I have been trying to look for some positives in the show lately for me. I thought Caleb Landry Jones seems like a good actor who is interesting to watch. I've not seen him in anything else. Also Mathew Lillard - great actor. The new Horne in the Bang Bang Bar was very menacing. The bit where Bad Cooper's face morphed with Bob in the mirror slightly was good special effects. Gosh, desperately trying to think of some other things. It's a start. Will let you know when I do! These are the only things I can come up with at the moment.

I would like to see a cameo from Shortround of Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom fame sometime soon. If he can turn up in shot and jab Good Cooper with a flaming torch to wake him up from the Black Sleep sooner than he is at the moment, that would be great so the storyline can get moving quicker and we can see what happens next

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[Aqwell]

Sorry for the ones who love it, just another rant from a bitter old fan. Nothing new I'm affraid.

Watching characters, as absurd as Dougie (and this awful wig), vomiting yellow bile right in front of the mystical and iconic red curtain, which by the way appears now anywhere in daylight... That's not something I consider like good ideas, not classy nor tasty. Ok sorry, it's not vomit, it's Garmonbozia, that's changes everything. So it's not "bad" per se, you just have to look beyond the vomit and into the gold ball. Which looks a lot like a clown nose in the middle of a black smoke head...

At least with an Inland Empire TV series I wouldn't have been surprised by the awkwardness of all of it.

Now we have a Doppel... I mean a Dougie version of Twin Peaks, and we all keep watching it just to see how far will it go in the comic absurdity. Still with a tiny, silly hope there will be a few good scenes here and there. But honestly, the whole thing is a big (bad) joke, a cruel one too. And sooooo long it will take all summer to see the end of it. Lynch didn't want to sell the show to Netflix, and I understand it, but in this particulary case, what a shame for us "naysayers".

A few laughs maybe, more hopes for that surely.

[Venus]

I have been trying to look for some positives in the show lately for me. I thought Caleb Landry Jones seems like a good actor who is interesting to watch. I've not seen him in anything else. Also Mathew Lillard - great actor. The new Horne in the Bang Bang Bar was very menacing. The bit where Bad Cooper's face morphed with Bob in the mirror slightly was good special effects. Gosh, desperately trying to think of some other things. It's a start. Will let you know when I do! These are the only things I can come up with at the moment.

I would like to see a cameo from Shortround of Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom fame sometime soon. If he can turn up in shot and jab Good Cooper with a flaming torch to wake him up from the Black Sleep sooner than he is at the moment, that would be great so the storyline can get moving quicker and we can see what happens next

IMG_0866.JPG

Oh my, that made me laugh so much! Thank you! lmao

[LateReg]

I'm in this thread because I'm fascinated by the reception of the show. I love to read why people aren't getting into it. As someone who really gets into criticism and the evolution of a films journey throughout time, this thread really hits a sweet spot for me.

Once again, in response to Putontheglasses, I agree that quite a few of the positive reviews on RT do seem lukewarm. But once again I would expect that from such a show, where people have access to only the first couple parts to review and are unsure of how to process its weirdness or pacing or plotting. I personally predict that critics admiration for this increases throughout its run. I see it similarly to how you do...that some people are giving it the benefit of the doubt, but where I differ is that I think viewers who do already like it will fall deeper into its rhythms and better grasp its structure as it goes along and the various threads come together. It just seems to me that this is the kind of challenging show that takes time to reveal itself, and that requires time to grasp, in that it's unique enough that it has to almost teach you how to watch it as it goes; I don't think this is easy viewing and I think it either feels noteworthily alien or has an alienating effect, depending on the viewer.

[counterpaul]

It's not Twin Peaks as we knew it before The Return began, I think that's almost undebatable (although feel free to debate it!). But there's a lot of amazing stuff in it.

If I have one overriding thought about The Return v Twin Peaks of old, it's that for all the bizarreness The Return is all too recognizable as the world I live in (and that doesn't say anything good about the world today). Twin Peaks of old was a beautiful place that I happily would have spent the rest of my life in. There isn't one location in The Return that I would want to be in now, not even Twin Peaks.

I can see what you're saying, and I basically agree. I think, however, that this is built in to the premise. The world, even Twin Peaks, is a dark, dark place at the moment because Cooper is in a dark, dark place.

To me, there is a very Twin Peaks logic to this. It isn't new. When Donna and Bobby break out into tears at The Roadhouse in Episode 14 as Maddy is dying, we are seeing this logic at work. They, of course, don't know that Maddy is at that moment being murdered, but the air has turned and they feel it. As Coop says to Margaret, "Something is...happening."

In Episode 27, I feel like Gyllenhaal was one of the few directors other than Lynch to really explore this idea, with the hand-shaking, the wonderfully "off" way Coop and Annie's conversation at the RR was shot (along with that lingering shot of the dropped dishes and slowly dripping coffee), that incredible moment when Ben suddenly turns around toward the camera as if there is something haunting his office, and of course, the mayor's "There's something wrong here..." and that ending with the hallways and BOB. A darkness is descending, and the whole town can't help but sense it.

And then there's The Missing Pieces. I think Lynch was right to cut this material out of FWWM (with the exception, possibly, of the first Palmer dinner scene and the scene with Doc and Eileen Hayward) and keep it Laura's story, but if the rest of the TP scenes had been included, they would have served a similar purpose. Things feel unsettled and tense. My favorite is the wonderful scene at the empty RR. Norma's "There's nobody here" feels eerily significant somehow, and her tears feel completely earned.

My point is, a basic truth in Twin Peaks is that darkness spreads and infects its surroundings. That's what's happening in The Return.

I also think that Twin Peaks was never primarily a show about having a nice, charming place to visit every week. As Judge Sternwood says, "Well, this week, heaven includes arson, multiple homicides, and an attempt on the life of a federal agent." A large and interesting place, indeed.

This is why I don't think the Dr. Who comparison is quite right. Yes, The Return is very much its own animal, but so was FWWM. So, in fact, was the first season vs the pilot. So was Episode 8-16 vs the first season. So was Episodes 17-28 vs everything that came before them. So was Episode 29 vs everything that came before it. So was The Missing Pieces vs FWWM and the series. To me, though, each variation (The Return very much included) shares that Twin Peaks DNA. There's a specific, irrational logic at work here that is quite consistent, even as everything around it may shift.

[John Justice Wheeler]

Once again, in response to Putontheglasses, I agree that quite a few of the positive reviews on RT do seem lukewarm. But once again I would expect that from such a show, where people have access to only the first couple parts to review and are unsure of how to process its weirdness or pacing or plotting. I personally predict that critics admiration for this increases throughout its run. I see it similarly to how you do...that some people are giving it the benefit of the doubt, but where I differ is that I think viewers who do already like it will fall deeper into its rhythms and better grasp its structure as it goes along and the various threads come together. It just seems to me that this is the kind of challenging show that takes time to reveal itself, and that requires time to grasp, in that it's unique enough that it has to almost teach you how to watch it as it goes; I don't think this is easy viewing and I think it either feels noteworthily alien or has an alienating effect, depending on the viewer.

Which again is why it should have all been dumped on us as a whole, as the whole that it is and was conceived as. This remains my biggest problem with the show and I guess it's not as much with the show itself as a meta-textual grievance having to do with the distribution of it. It's like being forced to watch a movie, one specific movie in its entirety, over the course of four months--which is, I guess, very much what this is.

[mlsstwrt]

It's not Twin Peaks as we knew it before The Return began, I think that's almost undebatable (although feel free to debate it!). But there's a lot of amazing stuff in it.

If I have one overriding thought about The Return v Twin Peaks of old, it's that for all the bizarreness The Return is all too recognizable as the world I live in (and that doesn't say anything good about the world today). Twin Peaks of old was a beautiful place that I happily would have spent the rest of my life in. There isn't one location in The Return that I would want to be in now, not even Twin Peaks.

I can see what you're saying, and I basically agree. I think, however, that this is built in to the premise. The world, even Twin Peaks, is a dark, dark place at the moment because Cooper is in a dark, dark place.

To me, there is a very Twin Peaks logic to this. It isn't new. When Donna and Bobby break out into tears at The Roadhouse in Episode 14 as Maddy is dying, we are seeing this logic at work. They, of course, don't know that Maddy is at that moment being murdered, but the air has turned and they feel it. As Coop says to Margaret, "Something is...happening."

In Episode 27, I feel like Gyllenhaal was one of the few directors other than Lynch to really explore this idea, with the hand-shaking, the wonderfully "off" way Coop and Annie's conversation at the RR was shot (along with that lingering shot of the dropped dishes and slowly dripping coffee), that incredible moment when Ben suddenly turns around toward the camera as if there is something haunting his office, and of course, the mayor's "There's something wrong here..." and that ending with the hallways and BOB. A darkness is descending, and the whole town can't help but sense it.

And then there's The Missing Pieces. I think Lynch was right to cut this material out of FWWM (with the exception, possibly, of the first Palmer dinner scene and the scene with Doc and Eileen Hayward) and keep it Laura's story, but if the rest of the TP scenes had been included, they would have served a similar purpose. Things feel unsettled and tense. My favorite is the wonderful scene at the empty RR. Norma's "There's nobody here" feels eerily significant somehow, and her tears feel completely earned.

My point is, a basic truth in Twin Peaks is that darkness spreads and infects its surroundings. That's what's happening in The Return.

I also think that Twin Peaks was never primarily a show about having a nice, charming place to visit every week. As Judge Sternwood says, "Well, this week, heaven includes arson, multiple homicides, and an attempt on the life of a federal agent." A large and interesting place, indeed.

This is why I don't think the Dr. Who comparison is quite right. Yes, The Return is very much its own animal, but so was FWWM. So, in fact, was the first season vs the pilot. So was Episode 8-16 vs the first season. So was Episodes 17-28 vs everything that came before them. So was Episode 29 vs everything that came before it. So was The Missing Pieces vs FWWM and the series. To me, though, each variation (The Return very much included) shares that Twin Peaks DNA. There's a specific, irrational logic at work here that is quite consistent, even as everything around it may shift.

Maybe. I definitely wouldn't have been so enraptured by Twin Peaks if it were just a nice, charming place to visit every week. If that were the case I would just watch Northern Exposure. Twin Peaks was a wonderful mix of light and dark but the darkness was wonderful itself. It's not that the new Series is too dark, it's just that the darkness is too ugly. FWWM was almost operatic wasn't it? There's no sense of that in The Return. As much weirdness as there is it feels almost flat and banal at times. No sorry that's not right, it feels flat and banal at almost all times. The emotional impact that Maddy's murder had v the emotional impact that the murder by Mr C had in Episode 1 is pretty representative. Now I'm not saying that effect isn't intentional, just that one had a huge impact and the other didn't. If that's what Lynch is going for, fine, but I still like one much more than the other.

It also feels incredibly disjointed. Is Jacobi going to play a part in all this? He had a fairly small but extremely coherent and intriguing role in the first Series. How are his gold shovels going to come into this? The description of this as a sketch show seems appropriate to me. There is no central mystery to hold this all together, it feels almost like, well if we had 'The MIssing Pieces', maybe this should be called 'Picking Up the Pieces'. It's like we're just seeing sad glimpses of these characters' really quite pathetic/anticlimactic lives 25 years on. Jacoby painting shovels and going on cliched rants about freedom and oppression. Shelly still a waitress in the Double R in her mid forties. I'm not saying there SHOULD be another central Laura Palmer style mystery, but that's what I loved about the original Twin Peaks and so, at this point, I can say I'd rather this hadn't been made.

My worst fear when The Return was announced was not that it would be a failure, it was that it would taint the original. That fear, at this point, has been realised. And I'm afraid that is going to be true whatever comes next and however good this ends up being in its own right. I just can't see myself spending as much time daydreaming about Twin Peaks again after this. Of course this isn't meant to be an indictment of The Return, just expressing my reaction towards it and what I fear it means for me.

[counterpaul]

Fans have made some good points which have definitely got me rethinking things. I think my emotional reaction had caused me to be particularly angry at David Lynch. Like I felt that his arrogance was sort of bending something which could've been a certain way into something completely different. But based on some arguments I've come to remember how much I liked Lynch's art in the first place, and doubt wether I'm right about the production, not really knowing anything about how it all came together, and it is helping me to reevaluate Season 3. So thanks for the discussion.

I really do get surprised (and I'm not talking about you specifically here) when people seem to accuse Lynch of somehow sabotaging the show. I'd think that anybody familiar with his body of work, like it or not, would at least conclude that Lynch is an artist who approaches his work with an open heart and a desire to engage with his ideas as genuinely as he possibly can. This has nothing whatsoever to do with how a given fan may react to a specific piece of work--you or I may end up genuinely hating something that Lynch genuinely loves, which is fine and even interesting to discuss. But to ascribe some disingenuous motive onto Lynch (and Frost, in this case) seems very weird to me.

I really hope we get some good Coop tomorrow, and a whole lot less Dougie.

Well, not to nitpick, but we haven't seen Dougie since Part 3 and he had maybe a minute and a half of screentime total. Since then, we have been seeing Coop.

And I say that as someone watching an adolescent role model in agony as anything else. It's not that I can't see the satirical value in what's happening and how it is good commentary on the world, and an awakening from mind numbing status quo television---People can say anything positive or negative about the season they like, but the idea of Agent Cooper being tortured endlessly continues to not sit well with me. I hope it didn't sit well with Lynch either

.....and he brings Cooper back to his right mind soon

I would strongly argue that Coop is in no way the target of satire here. The world in which he has been reborn certainly is being satirized, but Coop, even in his compromised state, is the shining exception.

He has some work to do for sure. That is the story here. I don't think his progress will be fast, but I do think it will be steady.

I'm actually surprised at how little discussion there has been of the "He's lying" moment. That was a huge moment. Coop is in there! Who he is and what he knows is in there. But he's been lost for so long that it would be profoundly dishonest to present a quick and easy journey back. Again, the joke is not on Coop. Lynch and Frost are honoring Coop with this story. That's the whole point.

[mlsstwrt]

Fans have made some good points which have definitely got me rethinking things. I think my emotional reaction had caused me to be particularly angry at David Lynch. Like I felt that his arrogance was sort of bending something which could've been a certain way into something completely different. But based on some arguments I've come to remember how much I liked Lynch's art in the first place, and doubt wether I'm right about the production, not really knowing anything about how it all came together, and it is helping me to reevaluate Season 3. So thanks for the discussion.

I really do get surprised (and I'm not talking about you specifically here) when people seem to accuse Lynch of somehow sabotaging the show. I'd think that anybody familiar with his body of work, like it or not, would at least conclude that Lynch is an artist who approaches his work with an open heart and a desire to engage with his ideas as genuinely as he possibly can. This has nothing whatsoever to do with how a given fan may react to a specific piece of work--you or I may end up genuinely hating something that Lynch genuinely loves, which is fine and even interesting to discuss. But to ascribe some disingenuous motive onto Lynch (and Frost, in this case) seems very weird to me.

I really hope we get some good Coop tomorrow, and a whole lot less Dougie.

Well, not to nitpick, but we haven't seen Dougie since Part 3 and he had maybe a minute and a half of screentime total. Since then, we have been seeing Coop.

And I say that as someone watching an adolescent role model in agony as anything else. It's not that I can't see the satirical value in what's happening and how it is good commentary on the world, and an awakening from mind numbing status quo television---People can say anything positive or negative about the season they like, but the idea of Agent Cooper being tortured endlessly continues to not sit well with me. I hope it didn't sit well with Lynch either

.....and he brings Cooper back to his right mind soon

I would strongly argue that Coop is in no way the target of satire here. The world in which he has been reborn certainly is being satirized, but Coop, even in his compromised state, is the shining exception.

He has some work to do for sure. That is the story here. I don't think his progress will be fast, but I do think it will be steady.

I'm actually surprised at how little discussion there has been of the "He's lying" moment. That was a huge moment. Coop is in there! Who he is and what he knows is in there. But he's been lost for so long that it would be profoundly dishonest to present a quick and easy journey back. Again, the joke is not on Coop. Lynch and Frost are honoring Coop with this story. That's the whole point.

I don't know about sabotage but sometimes it feels like Lynch is basically sneering at us. I may be totally wrong, but that's how it feels to me at times.

Well we are 5 episodes in. Cooper doesn't seem to have made much progress so if they're going to portray a more 'honest' account of rehabilitation from his current state, by episode 18 he should be roughly up to the mental level of a 5 year old child.

[mtwentz]

It absolutely makes sense that Cooper would not just walk out of the Lodge with all his mental faculties intact ( including his memories). And as much sense as this Dougie story makes, virtually no one saw this coming.

There are theories out there that before birth we are fully knowledgeable souls that have agreed to be born into the physical world, but that we forget everything at the moment of birth. And the main point of our life is to enjoy the forgetting, but also gradually remember who we really are (an eternal soul). This story reminds me of that.

[Venus]

It absolutely makes sense that Cooper would not just walk out of the Lodge with all his mental faculties intact ( including his memories). And as much sense as this Dougie story makes, virtually no one saw this coming.

There are theories out there that before birth we are fully knowledgeable souls that have agreed to be born into the physical world, but that we forget everything at the moment of birth. And the main point of our life is to enjoy the forgetting, but also gradually remember who we really are (an eternal soul). This story reminds me of that.

It's fiction though. The writers could have the characters do what they like. Frost and Lynch chose this.

[Mr. Reindeer]

My worst fear when The Return was announced was not that it would be a failure, it was that it would taint the original. That fear, at this point, has been realised. And I'm afraid that is going to be true whatever comes next and however good this ends up being in its own right. I just can't see myself spending as much time daydreaming about Twin Peaks again after this. Of course this isn't meant to be an indictment of The Return, just expressing my reaction towards it and what I fear it means for me.

I hope you can find your way past this, even if you still dislike the new show when all is said and done. In my experience (and of course we're all different), sequels that I dislike are pretty easy to ignore, especially when they're produced a substantial amount of time later. The third Godfather does nothing to detract from my appreciation of the first two films. I acknowledge it as part of the continuity and will occasionally give it another viewing, but the first two remain masterpieces despite the third just feeling wrong to me in terms of tone and plot in so many ways. The world of those first two films remains pure in my mind. That's an extreme and oft-cited example, but the same is true of many film franchises. The original show is its own thing and will always remain as such. Don't let a subsequent incarnation that you dislike ruin that!

[mlsstwrt]

My worst fear when The Return was announced was not that it would be a failure, it was that it would taint the original. That fear, at this point, has been realised. And I'm afraid that is going to be true whatever comes next and however good this ends up being in its own right. I just can't see myself spending as much time daydreaming about Twin Peaks again after this. Of course this isn't meant to be an indictment of The Return, just expressing my reaction towards it and what I fear it means for me.

I hope you can find your way past this, even if you still dislike the new show when all is said and done. In my experience (and of course we're all different), sequels that I dislike are pretty easy to ignore, especially when they're produced a substantial amount of time later. The third Godfather does nothing to detract from my appreciation of the first two films. I acknowledge it as part of the continuity and will occasionally give it another viewing, but the first two remain masterpieces despite the third just feeling wrong to me in terms of tone and plot in so many ways. The world of those first two films remains pure in my mind. That's an extreme and oft-cited example, but the same is true of many film franchises. The original show is its own thing and will always remain as such. Don't let a subsequent incarnation that you dislike ruin that!

Kind words Mr Reindeer, thank you! I've made two trips to Snoqualmie, the second to see a bit of the filming of The Return and will admit that Twin Peaks means a great deal to me. And, the weird thing is, that even if I end up liking the third season for what it is, maybe I'll never think of TP in the same way again. I hope that's not the case and that what you say is right.

Totally agree about Godfather III. Actually in it's own right it's entertaining enough but Pacino just isn't MIchael in that film, he's...... well, late era Al Pacino. You're right though, it hasn't ruined my memories of the first two films, I've compartmentalised each. Hopefully I'll be able to do the same with Twin Peaks.

[Putontheglasses]

It absolutely makes sense that Cooper would not just walk out of the Lodge with all his mental faculties intact ( including his memories). And as much sense as this Dougie story makes, virtually no one saw this coming.

There are theories out there that before birth we are fully knowledgeable souls that have agreed to be born into the physical world, but that we forget everything at the moment of birth. And the main point of our life is to enjoy the forgetting, but also gradually remember who we really are (an eternal soul). This story reminds me of that.

It's fiction though. The writers could have the characters do what they like. Frost and Lynch chose this.

And out of every story they could have chosen, they chose this boring mess. Such a waste. I've only ever been this let down in a movie from Phantom Menace. I hope a miracle happens and it improves.


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[Adolphus]

My worst fear when The Return was announced was not that it would be a failure, it was that it would taint the original. That fear, at this point, has been realised. And I'm afraid that is going to be true whatever comes next and however good this ends up being in its own right. I just can't see myself spending as much time daydreaming about Twin Peaks again after this. Of course this isn't meant to be an indictment of The Return, just expressing my reaction towards it and what I fear it means for me.

I hope you can find your way past this, even if you still dislike the new show when all is said and done. In my experience (and of course we're all different), sequels that I dislike are pretty easy to ignore, especially when they're produced a substantial amount of time later. The third Godfather does nothing to detract from my appreciation of the first two films. I acknowledge it as part of the continuity and will occasionally give it another viewing, but the first two remain masterpieces despite the third just feeling wrong to me in terms of tone and plot in so many ways. The world of those first two films remains pure in my mind. That's an extreme and oft-cited example, but the same is true of many film franchises. The original show is its own thing and will always remain as such. Don't let a subsequent incarnation that you dislike ruin that!

Kind words Mr Reindeer, thank you! I've made two trips to Snoqualmie, the second to see a bit of the filming of The Return and will admit that Twin Peaks means a great deal to me. And, the weird thing is, that even if I end up liking the third season for what it is, maybe I'll never think of TP in the same way again. I hope that's not the case and that what you say is right.

Totally agree about Godfather III. Actually in it's own right it's entertaining enough but Pacino just isn't MIchael in that film, he's...... well, late era Al Pacino. You're right though, it hasn't ruined my memories of the first two films, I've compartmentalised each. Hopefully I'll be able to do the same with Twin Peaks.

Interesting comparison between TP and The Godfather- EXCEPT I'd make the case that The Return is shaping up to be PT II of The Godfather- in other words another classic. The Return IS going to change the way that all fans see the first two seasons ( for good or ill ). It's interesting how the new season really is pushing boundaries and expectations - even for those who expected something different ( Like Myself ) it's far exceeded any boundaries that might have been considered ( which is a good thing in my books ). I'm excited to see where the new season is going- and then to re- watch the whole thing again to try and figure it out. What a gift!