L.B.

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Carl
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Re: L.B.

Postby Carl » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:49 pm

If one believes oneself what one says, then it ain't lying.
I guess Visitor #1 is trying shock-therapy to wake up a 'sleeper'. This can back-fire. It is said that if you want to awaken someone having a nightmare, touch their foot or someplace far from the heart.
Don't slap them.
**
I'd hesitate to call Nikki 'bad'. She may be vain and deluded, aging and insecure, thus easy prey to a handsome younger actor who is thrown in her way.
This is, after all, the story of 'A Woman In Trouble'.
We all have petty, self-centered, lust-driven components of our personality ( at least I do).
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:44 pm

Sorry, but I stand by my comments - "kind souls" don't cheat on their husbands the way Nikki cheated on Piotrek.
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jina
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Re: L.B.

Postby jina » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:43 am

Carl wrote:If one believes oneself what one says, then it ain't lying.
I guess Visitor #1 is trying shock-therapy to wake up a 'sleeper'. This can back-fire. It is said that if you want to awaken someone having a nightmare, touch their foot or someplace far from the heart.
Don't slap them.
**
I'd hesitate to call Nikki 'bad'. She may be vain and deluded, aging and insecure, thus easy prey to a handsome younger actor who is thrown in her way.
This is, after all, the story of 'A Woman In Trouble'.
We all have petty, self-centered, lust-driven components of our personality ( at least I do).


I agree with Carl very much on this.

about the cheating Kiddo, it's definitely not a good thing to cheat on your husband/wife, but we see it how it happens here and it's very different. she's not having fun with Devon at all you could say. there's something going on, not to say that her husband might want her to cheat on him.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:45 am

I'm sorry, but it just sounds ugly to hear someone justify and make excuses for a woman who shamelessly cheats on her husband. Also, when you say that Nikki wasn't having fun, you must be watching a different film than the rest of us. Watch that sex scene again...at least the parts before the sudden switchover is made from Nikki's world to Susan's.
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jina
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Re: L.B.

Postby jina » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:43 am

Kiddo wrote:I'm sorry, but it just sounds ugly to hear someone justify and make excuses for a woman who shamelessly cheats on her husband. Also, when you say that Nikki wasn't having fun, you must be watching a different film than the rest of us. Watch that sex scene again...at least the parts before the sudden switchover is made from Nikki's world to Susan's.



kiddo, i think you opinion is right.
it's just that that's not the point at all in the film.
i just feel that Nikki is a good person, so i forgive her :lol:
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:21 pm

Fair enough, but do you have any specific reasons for thinking that she's a good person?
JFK
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:35 am

i think its presumptuous to judge her good or bad
not only is she a character in a film(who gradually becomes aware she's a character)
and therefore an abstraction with no way to be judged objectively
but there's no way to be certain which parts of IE may be going on in her perspective(meaning outside the reality of the other characters)
and which parts are true, ontologically, for the film itself
(tho i do agree, kiddo, even if she was only thinking about cheating with devon, and it didnt actually occur, she would still be lying to piotrek, which is not so nice for a husband and wife, but didnt piotrek do the same back in poland, only to julia ormond? and since the idea of karmic debt or the unified field is, i think, at the heart of IE, it only makes sense that each relationship in the film be affected by others i.e. piotrek lies to his wife(in poland) and cheats on her with Lost Girl, therefore, as husband to nikki, and as smithy, husband to sue, the tables are turned and he is the one being cheated on)
plus, doesnt nikki/sue find and help Lost Girl in the end?
doesnt, when today becomes tomorrow the second time, she see herself cleansed and pure?
i dont see how you could judge her as a negative character with the way her story arc goes.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:21 pm

i think its presumptuous to judge her good or bad

No, I provided evidence to bolster my comments. Regardless of whether or not you agree with my observations, they are not presumptuous.

not only is she a character in a film(who gradually becomes aware she's a character)

Incorrect. Nikki Grace is perfectly real, altho Susan Blue is a character in a film who gradually becomes aware that she's a character. Big difference.

tho i do agree, kiddo, even if she was only thinking about cheating with devon, and it didnt actually occur, she would still be lying to piotrek

You say you agree with me, but I have never stated or even suggested any of the comments you proceed to "agree with." Nikki did in fact have an affair with Devon, and nothing suggests to me otherwise. And Susan also cheated on Smithy.

piotrek lies to his wife(in poland) and cheats on her with Lost Girl

Say what? Nothing like that happens at any point in the film. I think you may be confusing storylines. For instance, Piotrek only exists in Nikki's story.
applesnoranges
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Re: L.B.

Postby applesnoranges » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:03 pm

jina wrote:
Kiddo wrote:I'm sorry, but it just sounds ugly to hear someone justify and make excuses for a woman who shamelessly cheats on her husband.

It depends on what you mean by "cheats" and "husband". We see two scenes of a woman being beaten by a man "” almost exactly the same scene with different actors and setting. In the scene with Dern and Lucas we are told that he is her husband from the monolog sequence this scene of an unhappy relationship illustrates. In the one between Gruszka and Majzrzak, we are not told specifically what their relationship is though her outfit suggests that she may be a street girl who works for him. In any case, the one thing that they have in common is that the man thinks that the woman has done something that he doesn't want her to do. Both men seem to believe that women who displease men should be beaten.

So, while they may be "unfaithful" either to marriage vows or to an "agreement" with a pimp, they may being faithful to their own desires. In the relationship of the reunion scene at the end, desire and agreement seem to be the same. The man and woman are happy to be together.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:43 pm

It depends on what you mean by "cheats" and "husband".

Well...no. I was crystal clear about what I meant when I said that Nikki and Susan cheat on their husbands. No grey area, there. And no excuses for their horrendous and duplicitous behavior.

But as you mention, the situation with Polish Lost Girl (PLG) is not so cut and dry. It appears that PLG is a both killer and an adulteress, although neither can be 100% verified. That Polish storyline is so ambiguous!

Here are a couple current theories of mine:

1) Abortion is a major theme throughout the film, even though it is never directly addressed. PLG's hair-raising screams are for her soon-to-be-terminated child, and not for herself as she is pummelled to the floor. My guess is also that Susan aborted or lost her child with Smithy.

2) PLG was a prostitute who fell in love with and was impregnated by her lover played by the mustached and Polish-speaking Peter Lucas. She could not give him children because she was a street-walker and therefore could not become pregnant as it would interfere with her business. She murders Lucas's lover/wife out of jealousy. Polish Majchrzak beats PLG and hastily aborts her baby. Majchrzak is PLG's jealous lover and pimp. And this is why he shoots Polish Lucas in the head - out of jealousy.
JFK
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:45 pm

Kiddo wrote:i think its presumptuous to judge her good or bad

No, I provided evidence to bolster my comments. Regardless of whether or not you agree with my observations, they are not presumptuous.

they are presumptuous if i believe you are interpeting something without taking all matters into account. i disagree because judgement of a fundamental duality such as good/bad does not just depend on whether one lies or cheats. now of course there are degrees, and i think this is why we are not seeing eye to eye, but to me, the question of a good or bad person is beyond just our actions or thoughts. i philosophically disagree, regardless of your observations.

not only is she a character in a film(who gradually becomes aware she's a character)

Incorrect. Nikki Grace is perfectly real, altho Susan Blue is a character in a film who gradually becomes aware that she's a character. Big difference.

no i dont buy that. firstly, nikki grace is a character played by laura dern, a real person. big difference. then nikki then plays/turns into/gets lost in sue, as well as in variations. not all of which takes place in the filming of OHIBT. there are multiple levels of awareness going on, not just the sue persona. if anything, sue is a conduit to LG, so is an almalgam of character and abstraction.

tho i do agree, kiddo, even if she was only thinking about cheating with devon, and it didnt actually occur, she would still be lying to piotrek

You say you agree with me, but I have never stated or even suggested any of the comments you proceed to "agree with." Nikki did in fact have an affair with Devon, and nothing suggests to me otherwise. And Susan also cheated on Smithy.

i agree with your main point, that people shouldnt lie or cheat or steal or harm others. but thats not reality. we all do. and that in it of itself, doesnt not make one a "bad" person definitively. and i disagree that its clear that nikki and devon really got it on. there was sexual tension through out the first hour, and definitely the possibility is there, but if youre refering to the blue light sex scene in which piotrek/smithy watches(which takes place in the smithy house bedroom as a matter of fact), the fact that each actor is either confused, or playing a part(theroux calling her sue even when she screams at him that she is nikki), or silent as piotrek/smithy is, suggests that scene takes place metaphysically and not logically. did sue really cheat on smithy? just because he says he cant father children? then why does his son appear at the end when they are reunited with LG? because of nikki. thats something i would chalk up as a check mark in the good box for nikki.

piotrek lies to his wife(in poland) and cheats on her with Lost Girl

Say what? Nothing like that happens at any point in the film. I think you may be confusing
storylines. For instance, Piotrek only exists in Nikki's story.


i fundamentally disagree. piotrek exists, in the second hour and third hour, in multiple scenes in poland at night and in multiple times, the past and the present(in the context of IE as a film). he gives the time of 9:45 to a passerby. he has a mustache. he walks out on his wife(she stands with her back to the camera and tells him "youll never have her"(meaning lost girl, who he was having an affair with)(as the valley girls say "who is she?") and that woman is julia ormond, as she is later seen dead, just as piotrek is shown later, killed by the phantom, lying on the ground in a pool of blood. (even his seen at the seance takes place outside of nikki's story) im sorry but i dont think we're watching the same film if you can disregard all those scenes as only existing in nikki's story. i believe the polish scenes, which also include the phantom and lost girl crossing each other in the street, him beating her, LG walking around with a screwdriver looking to kill, to be the gypsy folk tale 4/7 and OHIBT as based on. LG and piotrek and his wife(julia ormond/doris side) and the phantom are all trapped by the consequences of their actions. nikki acts as the key for the lock, or the cigarette through the silk if i may. i really dont think that makes it purely nikki's story and therefore not important. if anything its their story that nikki becomes a part of, and is able to purge the curse from all of them.
im positive all those things happen in the story, and in my own understanding of IE, its all one storyline, so they can not be confused with another. but if you want to dismiss the more empherial aspects of the film as not real, i can see that too. but i dont agree in the least.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:46 am

i philosophically disagree, regardless of your observations.


As I said earlier, disagree all you like. But understand that my comments regarding the character of Nikki Grace are not presumptuous. Anything but.

nikki grace is a character played by laura dern


I assumed that we all understood that point, and so it went without saying. My bad. At any rate, understand that Nikki Grace never becomes aware that she is a character in any film. Sue Blue? Now she's another story.

people shouldnt lie or cheat or steal or harm others. but thats not reality. we all do.


No, I've never cheated on my spouse. Speak for yourself, please.

i disagree that its clear that nikki and devon really got it on.


Disagree all you like, but it clearly happens. The point is simply not up for debate if you are familiar with the film.

did sue really cheat on smithy? just because he says he cant father children?


Again, you're not following the plot. Sue Blue cheated on Smithy long before he revealed his sterility.

i believe the polish scenes...to be the gypsy folk tale 4/7 and OHIBT as based on.


Highly presumptuous. Any evidence or observations to back this up?

but if you want to dismiss the more empherial aspects of the film as not real


Again, highly presumptuous. Read my comments again for clarification.
applesnoranges
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Re: L.B.

Postby applesnoranges » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:39 pm

Kiddo wrote:2) PLG was a prostitute who fell in love with and was impregnated by her lover played by the mustached and Polish-speaking Peter Lucas. She could not give him children because she was a street-walker and therefore could not become pregnant as it would interfere with her business. She murders Lucas's lover/wife out of jealousy. Polish Majchrzak beats PLG and hastily aborts her baby. Majchrzak is PLG's jealous lover and pimp. And this is why he shoots Polish Lucas in the head - out of jealousy.

It all seems to fit if, as you say, the woman in white is PLG. Comparing her picture to the one of LG watching TV, I see the resemblance, but on the other hand, comparing the woman in white to Ormond walking away at the end of MTTH, there is at least as much resemblance. The body type is even more similar. Now, even if we could tell for sure which actress played the woman in white, that doesn't answer the question, "Who is she?" The name of the actress is not what's being asked either by the valley girls or by ourselves. Either of them or a third person might have played her part, just as two people played Camilla in MD, or for that matter, two people played the Cowboy.

Right now your theory above seems to fit by logic, but I'm not sure we can confirm that by identifying the actress. Her back is turned deliberately so we cannot know that for sure. And I guess any trained actress could do a character voice for her in any language, but she does not sound like Gruszka in the rest of the film; she sounds more like Ormond in the police station. But again, that's kind of a side issue I guess.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:46 pm

Now, even if we could tell for sure which actress played the woman in white, that doesn't answer the question, "Who is she?"


But because Gruszka is the woman in white, we do know the answer to Lori and Lanni's question. She, the woman in white, is the woman who commits murder-by-screwdriver. That is who she is. And because Gruszka is the woman in white, we know her motivation was jealousy. Remember when she told Polish Lucas that she would never let an unnamed woman have him? That unnamed woman (played by an uncredited actress) was the woman Gruszka in white is referring to. Gruszka in white made good on her promise.
JFK
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:56 pm

Kiddo wrote:
i philosophically disagree, regardless of your observations.


As I said earlier, disagree all you like. But understand that my comments regarding the character of Nikki Grace are not presumptuous. Anything but.

but you miss my point, obviously we are having a semantic discussion. there is no point to further discuss these issues if we have to define our words for each other. i defined presumptous for me, and which is why i disagree. based on your reasons, i dont think you are fully considering nikki's whole being and existence within the larger context of the film. just your context. to me that is presumptuous. but you, in relation to IE, define it differently. and i cant argue against. so be it.

nikki grace is a character played by laura dern


I assumed that we all understood that point, and so it went without saying. My bad. At any rate, understand that Nikki Grace never becomes aware that she is a character in any film. Sue Blue? Now she's another story.

people shouldnt lie or cheat or steal or harm others. but thats not reality. we all do.


No, I've never cheated on my spouse. Speak for yourself, please.

you know, its really pointless for me to respond to the use of insult as a replacement for you actually regarding the points i make.
but nikki never becomes aware? i totally disagree with that interpetation. as for sue blue, she is a part of nikki. so they share expirience. now thats a totally different story.
and im not married, so do speak for yourself, please.

i disagree that its clear that nikki and devon really got it on.


Disagree all you like, but it clearly happens. The point is simply not up for debate if you are familiar with the film.

well im very familiar with the film, and i think the point is debatable and ambiguous. i guess it isnt with you. my bad.

did sue really cheat on smithy? just because he says he cant father children?


Again, you're not following the plot. Sue Blue cheated on Smithy long before he revealed his sterility.

again, you disregard the other evidence. and we semantically disagree on what the plot actually is. but anyways, in the credits, there's a "smithy's son". makes me think he might just be a whole damn town(twin peaks reference if youre not familiar).

i believe the polish scenes...to be the gypsy folk tale 4/7 and OHIBT as based on


Highly presumptuous. Any evidence or observations to back this up?

i believe i listed a bunch of things, but evidently that is not evidence for you.

but if you want to dismiss the more empherial aspects of the film as not real


Again, highly presumptuous. Read my comments again for clarification

my point hindges that you are defining nikki as a bad person because of her actions in the film, but what you say constitues the film differs from what i say does. as well as how i would define a good or bad character, much less a good or bad person. i guess good for you that its so easy to judge. that is why i called your comment presumptuous. in my view, you were ignoring the other parts of the film that call into question nikki's reality, as well as sue's, and piotrek, and doris, hell even the phantom. and i feel that by the end of the film, something has happened. nikki, when today is tomorrow, has changed. and it looks like a pleasant change. i would say that is because of what she did for piotrek and lost girl(as well as herself).
and i would call that a good act.
lets just stop the presumptuous calling. we obviously have differing perspectives, so what is presumptous for me, is not for you and vice versa. tho i think you dont have to be so slightly snide and insulting(its a waste of time, i feel), i still find this discourse fruitful. for the most part. and believe it or not, i am trying to see your points and see the film in lights other than mine. who knows, one day we might agree on something!
Last edited by JFK on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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