L.B.

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JFK
Posts: 89
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:49 pm

alrighty, kiddo. i am listening. but im not hearing anything new.
when i joined this conversation, i was countering your point about the judgement of nikki as good or bad. you were pretty out of line in how you responded. now we're talking about the bare facts of the film, and i dont really see how anyone of us can really convince another of the facts if we differ in how we see them. in IE, the girl with the pony tail, climbing the stairs is Grushka. i think we agree on that. the corpse you say is uncredited actress looks to me like julia ormond. if you remember, the killing scenes happen pretty quickly once sue looks through the hole in the silk that Grushka showed her. first is the phantom and her arguing. then piotrek(or polish lucas as you call him, tho piotrek is polish for peter, and his americanized name is peter lucas, so i dont think it matters what you call him.) is seen in an arguement with the woman in white, who talks like they are married. then is the assault on Grushka, then peter/piotrek standing outside waiting. the time is 9:45. but there is a shot of Grushka in room 205, tearing up at the site of peter/piotrek. then grushka and the phantome meet on the street and have another threatening converstation about someone who has died that grushka knows. i think the symmetry carl is talking about is there. Grushka killed her lovers wife. the phantom killed piotrek. as is said multiple times, actions have consequences. Grushka is in limbo, not for adultry, but for murder.
nikki, by becoming sue, takes the place of Grushka in judgement. that is why ormond kills her. the phantom, who has hypnotized her, is still after Grushka, and knows that nikki/sue is helping her in someway. but what he doent know is that piotrek/peter is trying to help as well, hence the gun that can do away with the phantom(but not until the third shot, which is when nikki's ghastly grin is super imposed on him, as if to imply that the phantom is at work in nikki/sue as well). but nikki is able to stand without fear and enter room 47, where an audience cheers loudly for her. then Grushka is released and reunited with her lover(who is still dressed as smithy, and has his son with him, which i believe to be important facts). then nikki enters the palace, just as visitor #1 said she would at the beginning.
at least thats my take. and thanks again for being condescending by reverting to insults instead of discourse. funny because thats one quality in a person that i would judge to have a bad character, yet you very easily feel you can make that judgement(so important to you, seemingly) about nikki/dern, but whatever). and i still think youre using a double standard here, when admittedly, youre not sure about the basic facts of the film. so how about no more name calling and we continue a nice civil discourse of a film that we all seem to be enthralled by. at least thats why i came here.
Last edited by JFK on Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:35 pm

i was countering your point about the judgement of nikki as good or bad. you were pretty out of line in how you responded.


Not a bit. I made a point and backed it up with evidence. More than I can say for you or the other poster who refuses to see Nikki for the slimy character she clearly is. Sorry if making points and backing them up with evidence is "out of line."

the girl with the pony tail, climbing the stairs is Grushka. i think we agree on that.


Yes, of course.

the corpse you say is uncredited actress looks to me like julia ormond.


No, she looks nothing like Julia Ormand.

then piotrek(or polish lucas as you call him, tho piotrek is polish for peter, and his americanized name is peter lucas, so i dont think it matters what you call him.) is seen in an arguement with the woman in white, who talks like they are married.


Two big errors here. First: if you think that Lucas's Polish character here is Piotrek Krol, then you are really not following the plot of this film at all. Unless you believe the film concerns the concept of time travel? If so, please explain. And second: Polish Lucas and Gruszka don't talk like they are married (??) - they talk like lovers having a spat. But marriage never specifically comes into the picture. And speaking of marriage, do you believe Gruszka and Majchrzak are husband and wife?

Grushka killed her lovers wife.


Who is this "lover" you refer to?

the phantom killed piotrek.


Well let's just say that I agree that Majchrzak's character probably shot and killed Lucas's character. That's always been my feeling and seems to fit. But Lucas may have even committed suicide, or Gruszka may have shot Lucas, for all we know. And there is indeed evidence to support this latter theory.

Grushka is in limbo, not for adultry, but for murder.


It appears that she's in limbo for both. But then again, she may be in limbo because she messed around with forces beyond her reckoning. Don't forget that scene where she appears to be holding a sort of seance in which she prayed for her demons to be released. Perhaps it was a demon - something along the lines of a Killer BOB or Mystery Man - who heard and answered her dark prayer.

but nikki is able to stand without fear and enter room 47


Actually, she appears shell-shocked and barely able to stand.

then nikki enters the palace, just as visitor #1 said she would at the beginning.


Huh? Nikki ends the film in the exact same place where she began it - in her and Piotrek's posh new home.
JFK
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Location: chicago,IL

Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:20 pm

Kiddo wrote:
i was countering your point about the judgement of nikki as good or bad. you were pretty out of line in how you responded.


Not a bit. I made a point and backed it up with evidence. More than I can say for you or the other poster who refuses to see Nikki for the slimy character she clearly is. Sorry if making points and backing them up with evidence is "out of line."

ok, im ignoring your saltiness, but i do believe i have commented many times on how judgement of good/bad is subjective. but to me, to make an absolute judgement on those traits for a person(or character) is not such an easy thing to do.
especially when dealing with the distortions that media cause on our perceptions and even the basic fact that all cultures go about defines those things differently. so i feel i have, on more than one occasion, explained why i disagree with your points.

the girl with the pony tail, climbing the stairs is Grushka. i think we agree on that.


Yes, of course.

the corpse you say is uncredited actress looks to me like julia ormond.


No, she looks nothing like Julia Ormand.

maybe youre right about that. but i do think that was polish lucas' wife.

then piotrek(or polish lucas as you call him, tho piotrek is polish for peter, and his americanized name is peter lucas, so i dont think it matters what you call him.) is seen in an arguement with the woman in white, who talks like they are married.


Two big errors, here. First: if you think that Lucas's Polish character here is Piotrek Krol, then you are really not following the plot/s of this film at all. Unless you believe the film concerns the concept of time travel? If so, please explain. And second: Polish Lucas and Gruszka don't talk like they are married (??) - they talk like lovers having a spat. But marriage never specifically comes into the picture. But speaking of marriage, do you believe Gruszka and Majchrzak are husband and wife?


two errors you make:first i do not think piotrek krol, the character of nikki grace's husband, is otensibly the polish man whom lucas plays. but because they are played by the same character, i believe(and do so because other lynch films that have done the same, lost highway, mullholland drive, also function this way because of the use of one actor for multiple characters) that their consciousness is functioning together, so that the reality of perspective is called into question, and their stories intertwine. i called him piotrek because that is what his is credited as. that was in character, but in different realities. as for time travel, i believe the film has many metaphysical moments, whether its the rabbits, or doppelgangers, or the way time moves. i dont know if you would call that dealing with concept of time travel, but its pretty nonlinear in its form anyway, which kinda makes it outside of time itself.
as for if they are married. i believe they do have a sexual relationship, as of what kind, its hard to say. and since i dont think gruzka is the woman in white, i believe it to be the wife of polish lucas, maybe not julia ormond, but she sure does look like it.

Grushka killed her lovers wife.


Who is this "lover" you refer to?

the lover would be polish lucas/piotrek. the man she loves.
the phantom killed piotrek.


Well let's just say that I agree that Majchrzak's character probably killed Lucas's character. That's always been my feeling and seems to fit. But Gruszka may have shot Lucas, for all we really know. And there is indeed evidence to support this latter theory.

that is a possiblity, i agree. but i am less convinced Gruszka killed lucas.
Grushka is in limbo, not for adultry, but for murder.


It appears that she's in limbo for both. But then again, she may be in limbo because she messed around with forces beyond her reckoning. Don't forget that scene where she appears to be holding a sort of seance in which she prayed for her demons to be released. Perhaps it was a demon - something along the lines of a Killer BOB or Mystery Man - who heard and answered her dark prayer.

but nikki is able to stand without fear and enter room 47


Actually, she appears shell-shocked and barely able to stand.

yes, but after ten or so seconds, she seems so relieved and aware.
and then is the zooming shot of light that is just magnificent.

then nikki enters the palace, just as visitor #1 said she would at the beginning.


Huh? Nikki ends the film in the exact same place where she began it - in her and Piotrek's posh new home.


im talking about the film under the credits. i interpet that as the palace that was taking about.
a good place to be. and she isnt exactly where she began it. she is in tomorrow. and looking quite peaceful. and not slimeballish in the least.
Carl
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Re: L.B.

Postby Carl » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:07 am

'...But Lucas may have even committed suicide, ...'
So it struck my wife last time. She thinks he holds a pistol in his right hand. There are some superimpositions and edits here, so I can't really see the gun. She thinks it is pointed under his chin or thereabouts. Maybe he shot himself because he knew his lover was dead or maybe for other reasons considered his position hopeless.

I don't buy into this, myself. 'They were murdered!'
** So, the woman talking with The Phantom in the street about the murders ( he says murder, not suicide) is the woman climbing the stairs with the pony tail?
I do not see this either literally or figuratively. We need four characters for our little archetypal melodrama, of which two are women.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:28 am

i have commented many times on how judgement of good/bad is subjective. but to me, to make an absolute judgement on those traits for a person(or character) is not such an easy thing to do.


Right, and I heartily disagree. Nikki displays no notably good qualities, but we do know that she's a liar and an adultress.

maybe youre right about that. but i do think that was polish lucas' wife.


I suspect this as well. If nothing else, she appears to be Lucas's other lover.

first i do not think piotrek krol, the character of nikki grace's husband, is otensibly the polish man whom lucas plays.


I can only repeat my previous comment: clearly Lucas's Polish character is not Piotrek.

Your next error is to continue to assume that the woman in white is Ormand. If you ever get around to contrasting woman in white with Lost Girl (when seen from behind in chapter 1), you'll see why I say she's Gruszka. But it is essential to contrast these two specific scenes.

the lover would be polish lucas/piotrek. the man she loves.


Interesting, because now you seem to be referring to woman in white as Gruszka! The only indication we have that Gruszka and Polish Lucas were lovers is their interaction during the woman in white scene...

she isnt exactly where she began it. she is in tomorrow. and looking quite peaceful. and not slimeballish in the least.


Wait a minute - now Nikki is a slimeball? I thought you didn't believe in making such absolute judgements!

im talking about the film under the credits.


Yes, and that's a room in Nikki and Piotrek's home.
JFK
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Location: chicago,IL

Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:44 am

Kiddo wrote:
i have commented many times on how judgement of good/bad is subjective. but to me, to make an absolute judgement on those traits for a person(or character) is not such an easy thing to do.


Right, and I heartily disagree. Nikki displays no notably good qualities, but we do know that she's a liar and an adultress.

ok fine you disagree. we can move on.

maybe youre right about that. but i do think that was polish lucas' wife.


I suspect this as well. If nothing else, she appears to be Lucas's other lover.

which maybe true as well. i am open to that. it doesnt have to be his wife. but it does reinforence the marriage theme that is repeated many times.

first i do not think piotrek krol, the character of nikki grace's husband, is otensibly the polish man whom lucas plays.


I can only repeat my previous comment: clearly Lucas's Polish character is not Piotrek.

didnt we just say the same thing? piotrek krol, who lives in LA with and is married to nikki grace, is not the same character as the polish lucas. but that does not mean they are not connected, the most obvious sign being that they are played by the same actor. a formula lynch has used multiple times.

Your next error is to continue to assume that the woman in white is Ormand. If you ever get around to contrasting woman in white with Lost Girl (when seen from behind in chapter 1), you'll see why I say she's Gruszka. But it is essential to contrast these two specific scenes.

see my next point for more on this,
but my main observation, is that the woman in white with lucas scene takes place intercut with the arguing and beating scenes of the phantom(or whatever you want to call him in the polish scenes) and Gruszka, and gruszka is dressed in a sequin dress, dark, with a boa, and her hair pulled back, just like most of the rest of her scenes that take place in that part of the story. i absolutely agree, her and the woman in white do look alike when you contrast the scenes of gruszka from behing looking at the static on tv and the same view of the woman in white. but two european white woman with long black hair and of similar stature from behind are bound to look alike. maybe you do have a point. maybe they are connected. my point is that the film is constructed to contrast the two woman during that first sequence in poland, therefore defining them as separate characters. and during this sequence, there is also the scene of Lost Girl, seeing polish lucas on the street, and she starts to cry. i believe that is because he was waiting for her, as befits the reunion scene at the end.
wait now, theres more on this.

the lover would be polish lucas/piotrek. the man she loves.


Interesting, because now you seem to be referring to woman in white as Gruszka! The only indication we have that Gruszka and Polish Lucas were lovers is their interaction during the woman in white scene...

so what am i supposed to say here? you absolutely read my post wrong. no offense. but seriously, i did not say that. this is how it went.
in reply to my statement: "Grushka killed her lovers wife."
this was your question: "Who is this "lover" you refer to?"
my answer was "the polish lucas"
and this is a direct quote from my post:
"i believe they do have a sexual relationship, as of what kind, its hard to say. and since i dont think gruzka is the woman in white, i believe it to be the wife of polish lucas, maybe not julia ormond, but she sure does look like it.
so right there you misquote me, or avoid my evidence.
and that is not the only indication for me. apart from the end, and the longing that LG shows for him, the fact that nikki/sue is somehow a channel for LG, makes the multiple characters and relationships that peter lucas and laura dern play make more sense, as if dern were a stand in for gruszka in the relationship she wanted, but never had. which is yet another reason i dont think she is the woman in white. and i say right there that it may not be ormond. so why do you think i continue to think she is the woman in white when i just said that there is enough doubt that one can not for certain say she is ormond. or gruszka for that matter. but she is certainly the character that doris side(ormond) is based upon in OHIBT. the usurped woman lover/wife.

she isnt exactly where she began it. she is in tomorrow. and looking quite peaceful. and not slimeballish in the least.


Wait a minute - now Nikki is a slimeball? I thought you didn't believe in making such absolute judgements!

no, i said just she is looking quite peaceful and not slimeballish. looking. not being. and i said it to counter your negative view on her. i didnt say she turned into a good person. or was a bad one. you are mistaking the context. i was not making an absolute judgement. but i dont believe i have said i dont believe in making such absolute judgements. i have said i just dont believe you can say a person is good or bad just like saying a piece of food is bad. it is way more complex, and beyond just the personality and actions of a person(yes they are included but that is not all). so to make that judgement is presumptuous since one does not have all the information necessary to make that decison.
which is what started this whole row in the first place.
but that is my defintion. i know it isnt yours. no need to further hash this over.

im talking about the film under the credits.


Yes, and that's a room in Nikki and Piotrek's home.


yes it is, it is the back room from which we first see nikki enter.
i see it as the palace, which was the destination of the girl in the second story vistor #1 told.
maybe im making it too self contained for some, but i see no reason why the joy that is the credit sequence could not also be the palace nikki(might i even venture dern herself) has been looking for, according to the story told to her in the begining, which, one hour into the film, starts to come true.("behind the market place" and the first sighting of axxon n.) which is why i give the rest of the story credence.

carl,
i did not think about suicide. i suppose its possible. but the phantom spoke in such a knowing way about a murder that it seemed like he knew more than he let on. but i do find the idea interesting.
kerplooey
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Re: L.B.

Postby kerplooey » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:36 pm

It's always been my understanding that the LB tatoo was Laura Dern's, not her character's (well, characters')

Being married to musician Ben Harper (who is seen playing piano in the final end credits "party" scene), L stands for Laura and B for Ben.
JFK
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:52 pm

kerplooey wrote:It's always been my understanding that the LB tatoo was Laura Dern's, not her character's (well, characters')

Being married to musician Ben Harper (who is seen playing piano in the final end credits "party" scene), L stands for Laura and B for Ben.


how do you know that is harper at the piano? i admit he is not the most brightly lit person in that scene, therefore his features are a little ambiguous.

and whats the basis for thinking L.B. is actually a tatoo dern has? other than it is an acronym for her and her husbands first names. i have not seen a single picture of dern with back of hand visable and a L.B. tatoo on it. and the tatoo isnt consistantly there throughout IE. it disappears then comes back. i know make up can hide real tatoos, but i just dont follow your train of thought. show me a picture that proves me wrong and i will stand corrected. but i havent been able to see one.
Last edited by JFK on Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:48 am

The pianist is indeed Dern's husband, but the "L.B." on Dern's hand is not even likely to be a tattoo. In fact, it seems obvious enough (especially if you follow the plot carefully) that it is a hand-stamp she received at the club she begged her way into before speaking with Mr. K.
JFK
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:34 am

Kiddo wrote:The pianist is indeed Dern's husband.


what is the evidence to back up this fact?(other than recognizing him with your eyes, which i already admittly said, is hard to do because of the lighting, also he's only in close proximity of the camera two times very short times)
really, im just curious how you know its him, cause i couldnt tell, and there is no credit for him even though there is a credit for lynch's TM teacher!
Kiddo
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Re: L.B.

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:16 pm

Unfortunately I have no "evidence" for you beyond the twin facts that A) I simply recognize the man, and B) either Dern or Lynch mention his inclusion in the scene during an interview. Infortunately, I no longer have any memory of which interview this was or how I came across it.

If you make a thread out of this question on the IMDb boards, you're almost certain to eventually get response that will provide a link to verify the answer for you.
JFK
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Re: L.B.

Postby JFK » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:47 pm

no, thats good enough. as all of us here seem to be pretty perceptive(even if we have differing perceptions on something)and id rather not visit the circle of hell that is imdb.
so, according to general consensus and the fact youve heard it in an interview, thats good enough for me. i dont know why, but when i first saw IE, my first thought upon seeing the credit sequence was that the piano player looked like a hasidic jew, except without the payots. i dont know why and now feel rather silly.
applesnoranges
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Re: L.B.

Postby applesnoranges » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:10 pm

It's been long established on various boards that he's the pianist. There are over 9,000 hits to his name plus inland empire. Here is one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Harper

Or this one, a link to the Toranto Sun interview from the benharper.net forum:
http://forum.benharper.net/read.php?3,3 ... 4#msg-3514
Garfed
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Re: L.B.

Postby Garfed » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:21 pm

I think these thoughts are just for fun. In the Lynch film to be the object of attention, it seems more show what time and place, rather than the object of something. For example, in Mulholland Dr. LB piano ashtray, I think it is...
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