Scene 35

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Carl
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Carl » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:25 pm

Hey...

I'll check it out as well. We're just about to settle in for a little totally obsessive viewing here in NoCal.

**
The French subtitles are very minimal and seem inaccurate on occasion. But then my French is strictly from the classroom.
Still, that line rendered as '...in that voice of other times..' in the subs is not what Kingsley says. He says, '...that incredibly ancient voice of hers', talking about his niece who wants to know 'Who plays Smithy?' It's the difference between saying 'She speaks in an archaic manner' and ''She has an old woman's voice.' It's like adding an Interpretation as part of the Translation, which, I guess, is what I hate about translations, anyway.
I doubt very much if they're taken from a script. Of course, so much is improvised and added verbally by DL at the moment the scenes are shot that it is impossible really to judge.
I wish my DVD had German subs, as I can read German (with the aid of a dictionary.)
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gavriloP
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Re: Scene 35

Postby gavriloP » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:43 am

Yes, those subtitles can be misleading. In this Finnish version (it was like that in the theatrical version also) for example that scene where Sue finds herself on the streets of hollywood and says: "I'm a whore" the line after that is translated as: "I'm a freak" but I think the general opinion is that she says "I'm afraid".
Carl
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Carl » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:55 pm

The actual line is 'I'm a freak.'
Kiddo
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Kiddo » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:11 pm

The line is in fact "I'm afraid."

Susan is retelling the Axxon N. "Old Hotel" radio story we see at the beginning of the film.

The subtitles for this film - in every language, apparently - are a train wreck.
Carl
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Carl » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:38 pm

Don't think so. 'I'm a freak' is what we hear.
Kiddo
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Kiddo » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:05 pm

Nope. It's clear as day and common knowledge.

She says "I'm afraid."

Sorry.
applesnoranges
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Re: Scene 35

Postby applesnoranges » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:25 am

Kiddo is right. It's "I'm afraid" and she is talking about the hotel room scene. That's the point. To be sure we understand, she also says "Where am I?"
JFK
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Re: Scene 35

Postby JFK » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:00 pm

i have to agree with kiddo and apples, she says exactly what LG says at the beginning of the film when having sex with the blurred out man and before IE moves into color, "where am i?" and "im afraid". the one difference is that derns first line is "im a whore" before she repeats lost girls lines. and i just love the mocking and distorted way that dern says "im afraid" just as black tamborine, the beck song, kicks in. maybe that is where the confusion is, carl. for that line, her speech is quite guttural and i can see how it could be heard differently, but the last syllable she says is definitely ended by a "D" sound, and ive always connected that scene with lost girl's earlier lines. btw, does anyone have some ideas about the whole street scene at just past the two hour mark? there is obviously a breaking up of the nikki/sue persona which leads to the scene we were just talking about, but after that, IE cuts to across the street, where nikki/sue is walking, seemingly oblivious to her doppelganger across the street, until said doppelganger smiles that grimacing smile at her, then she sees the axxon n. writing, and then(and this is the part i find most important) she keeps walking, this being the only time she doesnt enter into axxon n. and because of that, she sees the hypnotized ormond and panics(in a knowing way, by that i mean in fear for her life). what do you guys and gals make of the splitting of dern's character and the fact that one of them is mocking LG, as well as the avoidance of axxon n. and what that entails?
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gavriloP
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Re: Scene 35

Postby gavriloP » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:02 pm

There are definitely two "Sues" at this point. Before the great torn there are two Sues at Smithys house. One of them is outside and other is in. Thunder "releases" both of them to the street (of course these can be the "same" because they don't see each other). Anyway, when we go to the hooker street, there are two Sues. I think that only one of them has a screwdriver and she is the one who doesn't say "I'm a whore". They are on the different sides of street, one of them is on address 6330 and other one is 6331, you can see these signs near streetphones. It is also made clear with editing and camera angles. I think it is very important that when the screwdriver Sue sees herself, her reflection has the real face of phantom. Man, I can't forget that grin, it is maybe only thing in movies that scares me, and I've seen few. Even closeups with Dern give me chills every once in awhile. But the fact that I am watching this alone in old attic full of dead birds and rats, where my studio lies won't help. At the moment even Light Bulb of the attic is dead and I have to use electric torch to get to the studio, across the attic, woo... :) well, this is actually true, but don't worry, I'm OK.

If we use screwdriver as a clue then we know it is this one Sue who runs to the club and goes up to see Mr. K. She also comes back to the streets and when she sees hookers it is first time for her even though hookers ask about her "disappearance".

I think that at this point there are Sue and her phantom reflection that is eventually chasing her. To me this Doris killer seem to be her imagination. One of the strange aspects about Doris on the street is the fact that I can't "see" how she is moving, considering the editing and angles. At some point it even seems to me that she is coming closer to both Sues. Also nobody but Sue sees her.

Finally, I have to say that my interpretations about IE have changed quite a lot but now I have at least one coherent story, it was enough to kill that unhealthy obsession and made it more "tolerable".

To me the "real" Sue is one with the screwdriver. And as always, I may be wrong about that :) .

And BTW I think she mocks LG because she is evil (phantom Sue)
Carl
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Carl » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:08 pm

'Common knowledge'? :P
Now, now, 'knowledge' is not a synonym for 'concensus of opinion'. Many , as I, hear the line as 'freak'. Many, if not most, reviews have it as 'freak', right? ( GOOGLE) I try to listen with my ears, not for evidence to score a debating point.
Oh, I can see the 'symmetry' of 'Where am I?', I'm afraid' between the scenes. This is a movie that often 'breaks symmetry', as noted.
If she said 'afraid' it would be quite tidy, but I do not thinks she actually does.
The French subtitle, 'Je suis barrée.' , btw, translates as ' I am crossed,screwed, up the creek, blocked' as well as 'things are looking a bit iffy'
...so, the French subs were done for comic effect. :lol:

I'd say this is pretty much my last word on this interesting point ( unless the movie turns out to revolve about it, which I misdoubt.)
JFK
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Re: Scene 35

Postby JFK » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:46 pm

i know nothing about common knowledge or consensus of opinion regarding dern's line. and im not a fan of google. so i only know that from my first viewing of IE at its premire in chicago, to my latest viewing a couple weeks ago, i have always, and only, heard her say "i'm afraid." i see what youre saying about broken symmetry, but that idea in itself is meaningful, at least to me, for the arc of IE. that tho not all things may not make tidy logical sense, there is still a symmetry(no thats not a math pun) to the film, jagged edges and all. but you really nailed the point of this debatable point by saying "I try to listen with my ears, not for evidence to score a debating point." i couldnt agree more.
BUT, to my native english hearing ears, and my eyes watching her mouth, i am utterly convinved she says "afraid." i can see phonetically the a-, the fr-, the ai-, and the final -d, before she starts laughing with the valley girls. and tho the film does not revolve around that line, it does revolve around the relationship of it characters, of which the nikki/sue and lost girl interwining is one of primary focus.
so the echo of one characters line in another characters mouth is an important fact to be noted. as to the truth underneath that fact, i think we all have to get down off the soapbox eventually and acknowledge that we each make our own truth, and none is more valid than anothers, no matter how much we differ in opinion or what the consensus is.
(plus i just plain like the disdain that dern says the line with, and in my understanding of the film, to use that emotion in a mocking way with words already spoken by another character is not a moot point) but thats me. i can only speak of what i have put together in my own head.
its ridiculous to harangue about what each of us hears, as i can not convince your ears anymore than you can. enough said.
SHES A SUPERFREAK!
Kiddo
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:01 pm

Sorry, carl. But (pun alert) I'm afraid that my "clear as day and common knowledge" comment has been verified.

Let's move on.
applesnoranges
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Re: Scene 35

Postby applesnoranges » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:57 am

OK, assuming that she says the lines from the beginning of the film, the scene from the radio play, as I think she does, one thing it took me a long time to notice and a longer time to connect to this street scene, is that the shots of the record player and the hotel room encounter are something that Lost Girl is watching on TV. Never mind what I thought before, but eventually I noticed that the shot of the record player in b/w in the middle of the film where Gruszka teaches Dern to see through the silk is also something Lost Girl watches on TV, so the hotel room scene must be too. Lost Girl also watches various other things on TV so it seems that she sees the whole movie on TV, up to the point where she leaves the room anyway. So, the Dern character who is laughing and not afraid anymore (laughing at the frightened one across the street) is laughing at the trauma of the whole thing.

So what's next? Or does anyone disagree with that?
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gavriloP
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Re: Scene 35

Postby gavriloP » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:23 am

Now that I really paid attention to the syllables I also think she says "I'm afraid" and of course it makes more sense too.

Yes, I think LG sees "everything" from tv. You know in romantic world we see "our lives as in theatre" while trapped inside the mind but she only sees a television. Culture is going downhill :) To me, LG is in that very state what Sue is describing to Mr. K.
Kiddo
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Re: Scene 35

Postby Kiddo » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:53 am

I agree that LG is viewing most (but not nearly all) of the film from her TV set in room 205 of the cursed Old Hotel. However, I also believe that she is influencing the action on some level. And so is her captor, The Phantom.

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