Dopplegangers

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Rainwater
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Rainwater » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:47 am

Pöllö wrote:Although, where is good Coop then if it is just a mere illusion? How can he be saved?

His mind/soul/consciousness/whatever is in the Lodge, while his possessed body is prancing around our world, controlled by BOB. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. I don't fully subscribe to the "split personality" interpretation either, mostly as it seems to remove all personal agency and identity from the victim. Following that line of thought, there is no "Coop", there's just his good side and his bad side, now as separate entities.. which, to me, seems like it takes away all that is interesting about these concepts and dives head-first into "it's all in their head"/mental illness territory. Let's not begin on "there is nothing supernatural going on" theories, which, baffling as it may be, have found their way into this fan-base as well. Eh, to each their own, I guess. I don't mind there being no definitive interpretation, and Lynch certainly seems to like it that way.
How can he be saved? Only through his own willpower, I'd wager. I don't think a backwards-driving truck(whoever came up with that - Peyton or Engels, I assume - in any case, I doubt it was Lynch) would suffice, which has always sounded like bad fan-fiction to me.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby laughingpinecone » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:10 am

Rainwater wrote:
Pöllö wrote:Although, where is good Coop then if it is just a mere illusion? How can he be saved?

His mind/soul/consciousness/whatever is in the Lodge, while his possessed body is prancing around our world, controlled by BOB. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. I don't fully subscribe to the "split personality" interpretation either, mostly as it seems to remove all personal agency and identity from the victim. Following that line of thought, there is no "Coop", there's just his good side and his bad side, now as separate entities.. which, to me, seems like it takes away all that is interesting about these concepts and dives head-first into "it's all in their head"/mental illness territory. Let's not begin on "there is nothing supernatural going on" theories, which, baffling as it may be, have found their way into this fan-base as well. Eh, to each their own, I guess. I don't mind there being no definitive interpretation, and Lynch certainly seems to like it that way.
How can he be saved? Only through his own willpower, I'd wager. I don't think a backwards-driving truck(whoever came up with that - Peyton or Engels, I assume - in any case, I doubt it was Lynch) would suffice, which has always sounded like bad fan-fiction to me.


I wholeheartedly support any interpretation that emphasizes the characters' agency (and an absolute lack of backwards-driving trucks :x :x :x ), but Lynch himself said that there are two Coopers and one got out...
I want to believe that, however this will play out on a literal level, it will still boil down to an internal conflict that Coop will have to overcome to effectively save himself, like Laura before him - and more recently the Lost Girl, according to my favored brand of Inland Empire analysis.


I see some old mudra discussion in the previous page - I came across this statuine in Milan last year. It didn't say what the pose means, but... it exists:
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Pöllö » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:16 am

Rainwater wrote:
Pöllö wrote:Although, where is good Coop then if it is just a mere illusion? How can he be saved?

His mind/soul/consciousness/whatever is in the Lodge, while his possessed body is prancing around our world, controlled by BOB. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. I don't fully subscribe to the "split personality" interpretation either, mostly as it seems to remove all personal agency and identity from the victim. Following that line of thought, there is no "Coop", there's just his good side and his bad side, now as separate entities.. which, to me, seems like it takes away all that is interesting about these concepts and dives head-first into "it's all in their head"/mental illness territory. Let's not begin on "there is nothing supernatural going on" theories, which, baffling as it may be, have found their way into this fan-base as well. Eh, to each their own, I guess. I don't mind there being no definitive interpretation, and Lynch certainly seems to like it that way.
How can he be saved? Only through his own willpower, I'd wager. I don't think a backwards-driving truck(whoever came up with that - Peyton or Engels, I assume - in any case, I doubt it was Lynch) would suffice, which has always sounded like bad fan-fiction to me.

I like that explanation the most. Some were suggesting that BOB inhabited Coop's doppelgänger, but that explanation doesn't make any sense. If that's the case, why couldn't he do that in the first place and just go and do his thing. I think his takeover of Coops body in the Lodge implies that there is only one physical Coop and the one stuck in the Lodge is Coopers good side or call it whatever you want.

I get the reasoning behind the "nothing supernatural" - I think some have theorized it quite well, but it has some holes and it's pretty hard to interpret the show trough that lens. Usually supernatural elements are quite cheesy and a cheap way to tell a story but in TP it works, as it is so original. I still like to think that Leland was responsible on some level tho, that it wasn't just BOB.

Definitive interpretations would ruin the show completely. Twin Peaks is all about mystery after all.
Last edited by Pöllö on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Rainwater » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:05 am

laughingpinecone wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
Pöllö wrote:Although, where is good Coop then if it is just a mere illusion? How can he be saved?

His mind/soul/consciousness/whatever is in the Lodge, while his possessed body is prancing around our world, controlled by BOB. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. I don't fully subscribe to the "split personality" interpretation either, mostly as it seems to remove all personal agency and identity from the victim. Following that line of thought, there is no "Coop", there's just his good side and his bad side, now as separate entities.. which, to me, seems like it takes away all that is interesting about these concepts and dives head-first into "it's all in their head"/mental illness territory. Let's not begin on "there is nothing supernatural going on" theories, which, baffling as it may be, have found their way into this fan-base as well. Eh, to each their own, I guess. I don't mind there being no definitive interpretation, and Lynch certainly seems to like it that way.
How can he be saved? Only through his own willpower, I'd wager. I don't think a backwards-driving truck(whoever came up with that - Peyton or Engels, I assume - in any case, I doubt it was Lynch) would suffice, which has always sounded like bad fan-fiction to me.


I wholeheartedly support any interpretation that emphasizes the characters' agency (and an absolute lack of backwards-driving trucks :x :x :x ), but Lynch himself said that there are two Coopers and one got out...

Yeah, he did say that.. if that means Coop being split in two, I definitely don't understand it, but - I don't think "another Cooper" necessarily indicates a split personality, as the concept of a doppelgänger is quite different. It's an "evil twin", not one person divided in half.

laughingpinecone wrote:I want to believe that, however this will play out on a literal level, it will still boil down to an internal conflict that Coop will have to overcome to effectively save himself, like Laura before him - and more recently the Lost Girl, according to my favored brand of Inland Empire analysis.

The one where she's in some sort of purgatory, dealing with the demons(literal or not) of her past? Or was it a shadow self? I think it's an interesting interpretation and I remember thinking it made the most sense out of the ones I've read - which there aren't that many of. Now that is a movie that is just as mind-boggling as some first-time Lynch viewers have accused Mulholland Drive of being, which is really incredibly straight-forward, compared with the delicious clusterfuck that is Inland Empire.

Pöllö wrote:I like that explanation the most. Some were suggesting that BOB inhabited Coop's doppleganger, but that explanation doesn't make any sense. If that's the case, why couldn't he do that in the first place and just go and do his thing. I think his takeover of Coops body in the Lodge implies that there is only one physical Coop and the one stuck in the Lodge is Coopers good side or call it whatever you want.


Well, I'm not sure if you understood my post. Cooper only has one physical body in any case, regardless of whether it's his doppelgänger using it or just BOB. I don't really agree with the interpretation that BOB has possessed Coop, as I said - I'm not sure it's that simple, and, come to think of it, makes less sense than a doppelgänger possessed by BOB. If you want a meta explanation, if I remember correctly, Lynch introduced the idea of two Coopers because of his intense dislike for the ending in the script where Cooper is indeed possessed by BOB - mostly out of love for the character. The fact that this doesn't seem to be the case and that Cooper's soul no longer inhabits his body and the doppelgänger assumes responsibility in his stead, in some strange relationship with BOB, is what makes Cooper's situation very different from that of Leland and creates the possibility of redemption(then again, he did, by proxy, give his soul to BOB..). I know someone, somewhere on this forum, maybe it was LostintheMovies, already made a post explaining it better than I could, but I can't be bothered to find it.
Besides, I feel we don't have enough to go on to really understand what the doppelgängers in the Lodge are exactly, to what extent they're connected to BOB and whether they're separate entities at all.

Pöllö wrote:I still like to think that Leland was responsible on some level tho, that it wasn't just BOB.

Oh, definitely. Concepts of demonic possession often deal with the guilt of the victim. I think FWWM made it clear that Leland holds some amount of responsibility, in contrast with the episode in Season 2 where Leland dies. I think Lynch had already made up his mind in the finale, with the doppelgänger's "I did not kill anybody" mocking Leland's denial. As for his death scene, it can now be interpreted as him still being in denial even as he breathes his last, but it's probably contrary to the writers' intentions at the time.

Pöllö wrote:Twin Peaks is all about mystery after all.

I do agree, mystery is the heart and soul of Twin Peaks.

(Sorry for the rambling post, I hope at least some of it makes sense.)
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Pöllö » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:25 am

Rainwater wrote:Well, I'm not sure if you understood my post. Cooper only has one physical body in any case, regardless of whether it's his doppelgänger using it or just BOB. I don't really agree with the interpretation that BOB has possessed Coop, as I said - I'm not sure it's that simple, and, come to think of it, makes less sense than a doppelgänger possessed by BOB. If you want a meta explanation, if I remember correctly, Lynch introduced the idea of two Coopers because of his intense dislike for the ending in the script where Cooper is indeed possessed by BOB - mostly out of love for the character. The fact that this doesn't seem to be the case and that Cooper's soul no longer inhabits his body and the doppelgänger assumes responsibility in his stead, in some strange relationship with BOB, is what makes Cooper's situation very different from that of Leland and creates the possibility of redemption(then again, he did, by proxy, give his soul to BOB..). I know someone, somewhere on this forum, maybe it was LostintheMovies, already made a post explaining it better than I could, but I can't be bothered to find it.
Besides, I feel we don't have enough to go on to really understand what the doppelgängers in the Lodge are exactly, to what extent they're connected to BOB and whether they're separate entities at all.


I understood you. I was just talking about a theory that I read somewhere. According to it there indeed are two physical entities - the 'good' Cooper in the real world and the 'evil' doppelgänger in the Lodge. I just don't understand the reasoning behind that theory, as BOB could then just possess Coopers doppelgänger in the Lodge and go harvest. My intention was to point out how that doesn't make any sense and thus it's more likely and more believable that there is only one Cooper.

I do agree that we don't really have any solid info to back any of this up, only our theories, so it's impossible to come to a definitive conclusion.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Rainwater » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:43 am

Pöllö wrote:
Rainwater wrote:Well, I'm not sure if you understood my post. Cooper only has one physical body in any case, regardless of whether it's his doppelgänger using it or just BOB. I don't really agree with the interpretation that BOB has possessed Coop, as I said - I'm not sure it's that simple, and, come to think of it, makes less sense than a doppelgänger possessed by BOB. If you want a meta explanation, if I remember correctly, Lynch introduced the idea of two Coopers because of his intense dislike for the ending in the script where Cooper is indeed possessed by BOB - mostly out of love for the character. The fact that this doesn't seem to be the case and that Cooper's soul no longer inhabits his body and the doppelgänger assumes responsibility in his stead, in some strange relationship with BOB, is what makes Cooper's situation very different from that of Leland and creates the possibility of redemption(then again, he did, by proxy, give his soul to BOB..). I know someone, somewhere on this forum, maybe it was LostintheMovies, already made a post explaining it better than I could, but I can't be bothered to find it.
Besides, I feel we don't have enough to go on to really understand what the doppelgängers in the Lodge are exactly, to what extent they're connected to BOB and whether they're separate entities at all.


I understood you. I was just talking about a theory that I read somewhere. According to it there indeed are two physical entities - the 'good' Cooper in the real world and the 'evil' doppelgänger in the Lodge. I just don't understand the reasoning behind that theory, as BOB could then just possess Coopers doppelgänger in the Lodge and go harvest. My intention was to point out how that doesn't make any sense and thus it's more likely and more believable that there is only one Cooper.

I do agree that we don't really have any solid info to back any of this up, only our theories, so it's impossible to come to a definitive conclusion.

Oh. I don't think the Lodge is, strictly speaking, physical. It's.. another place.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Snailhead » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:08 am

The Lodge seems to borrow from indigenous beliefs that entail a world inhabited by spirits that exists in the same space as our own on an alternate plane, with tobacco smoke acting as an intermediary between the worlds.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby mine » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:43 pm

Rainwater wrote:Oh, definitely. Concepts of demonic possession often deal with the guilt of the victim. I think FWWM made it clear that Leland holds some amount of responsibility, in contrast with the episode in Season 2 where Leland dies. I think Lynch had already made up his mind in the finale, with the doppelgänger's "I did not kill anybody" mocking Leland's denial. As for his death scene, it can now be interpreted as him still being in denial even as he breathes his last, but it's probably contrary to the writers' intentions at the time.

What I always found interesting is that, when Laura tells Cooper her father killed her, she effectively puts the blame on Leland. The choice of words made that statement very powerful. Imagine if things went as planed, and that line was spoken in the series finale?
Considering that she first tells that to Cooper very early on, but he only remembers it later, suggest an interpretation that Bob and the super natural world can be understood as Laura's way of escaping the reality of what Leland was doing to her.
Interestingly Leland says he always thought Laura knew it was him. A statement that makes more sense if spoken by Leland than Bob.
Cooper basically had to "decode" what was going on in Laura's head to understand what happened to her and hear what she told him in the dream. This is also mirrored in the show where Leland being the killer and/or Bob is in front of our noses the whole time but we lack the context to understand why he would kill his daughter to consider it plausible.
It's also interesting that Laura was living a double life that mirrors the doppelganger imagery from the Black Lodge. There is a possibility that the same goes for Cooper, since once it's revealed what happened to Caroline, Cooper's goofy persona can bee seen as an analogy to Laura's perfect/innocent one implying there is another one we didn't get to see. It's also interesting how Cooper's possession happens when Caroline's death is literally shown to us.
It's interesting how all that supernatural world only exists with or around Laura and Cooper. There's also a correlation between how much about what was going on between Laura and Leland and how much of the world individual characters get to see. Those who investigated Leland's murders, but didn't go far, encountered some minor characters, while Cooper saw the whole thing, Sarah had visions of Bob, but after all Leland was raping Laura in her house.
It's also interesting how Philip Gerard controls Mike with drugs.

Now of course there's more to it and of course in the world of Twin Peaks there are no clear distinctions between reality and mythology and I fully expect it to stay this way.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Rainwater » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:52 pm

mine wrote:Interestingly Leland says he always thought Laura knew it was him. A statement that makes more sense if spoken by Leland than Bob.

Remember, Bob immediately follows it up with "I never knew you knew it was me".
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:57 pm

I never understood BOB's statement there. I figured he was mocking Leland.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby mine » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:01 am

Rainwater wrote:Remember, Bob immediately follows it up with "I never knew you knew it was me".

Which makes sense. It can both confirm Leland's statement (he never knew she saw him as Bob) while making it plausible Bob is an existing entity who didn't realize Laura could see him as such. Bob makes that statement in a mocking tone which keeps it ambiguous.
I fully expect the new episodes to keep it in that territory.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Rainwater » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:02 am

N. Needleman wrote:I never understood BOB's statement there. I figured he was mocking Leland.

I always took it at face value, meaning, as mine said, Bob didn't know Laura could see his "true face". He actually thought Laura always saw Leland. But now I'm thinking that makes little sense if you consider that Bob was frequently talking to Laura and she knew his name.. The more I think about it, the less I'm sure of what it means.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby vicksvapor77 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:59 pm

Rainwater wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I never understood BOB's statement there. I figured he was mocking Leland.

I always took it at face value, meaning, as mine said, Bob didn't know Laura could see his "true face". He actually thought Laura always saw Leland. But now I'm thinking that makes little sense if you consider that Bob was frequently talking to Laura and she knew his name.. The more I think about it, the less I'm sure of what it means.


What makes it more interesting and/or confusing is Bob's line is NOT in the shooting script, only Leland's is. :?
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Maddy » Thu May 04, 2017 4:05 am

I figured it was BOB/Leland mocking Laura in a way because she genuinely didn't know.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby StrangerDanger » Thu May 04, 2017 4:31 am

Maddy wrote:The word "doppelganger" literally means "double-walker". In German legend (and as it's a german word) it also means that the double walker (also sometimes called ghost walkers) are evil versions of ourselves. after I first watched Twin Peaks, I was fascinated by the subject and researched it. It is believed that if you see your doppelganger (who you'll recognise because they're identical to you- but also like your "evil twin". it is a sign of impending doom/death. I also read one true story of a man who went outside of his house for a walk, while his wife cooked their meal. A couple of minutes later she saw him passing by the window again and frowned as she'd literally just seen him go off the opposite way - she was concerned and went outside, where she saw her husband lying dead and the double walking around the corner in the opposite direction!
It's also believed that every person has a(t least one) doppelganger walking the earth and basicaslly if you run into them and are afraid it'd be like what happened in Twin Peaks to Coop. Ok, BOB wouldn't possess you but the doppelganger could possess your soul. I also believe that Laura and Maddy were doppelgangers and Maddy is the one screaming at the end becasue she wore Laura's wig (twice).
So BOB's dopp I believe would be identical to him like Coop and his. After all, we see Leland's dopp in the black lodge and it looks exactly like him, any dopp does.
:P


My doppelganger rode right past me on a bus, completely ignoring me while l stared at him slack jawed. This was about 15 years ago though - thankfully l'm still alright :) I believe we each have an evil spirit within us though - now that's what l truly call a doppelganger.

I too am wondering about the relationship of characters with their doppelgangers. For example, COOP (Coop's doppelganger) and BOB - surely COOP is a doppelganger himself, so where does BOB come into it? Also MFAP and MIKE - surely MIKE was Gerard's doppelganger, so where does MFAP come into it?
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