Episode 25

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri May 19, 2017 6:26 pm

So, I feel like a complete moron. I've watched the full series 7 times, and the DKL-directed episodes probably twice that amount. I just realized the connection between Gordon's reference to the "babe without the arms" and the statue in the Episode 29 Black Lodge hallway. I assume this is common knowledge in the fan community and I'm late to the party.

Also intriguing implications with MIKE and tattoos. The mind reels.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Episode 25

Postby HagbardCeline » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:59 pm

In the scene where Audrey runs into Wyndom Earle in the library, is it just my copy or is there a shot that looks like a bad VHS recording even on the restored Blu Ray? It's right where he says something about his mind wandering. Then it cuts to a close up of his face and looks fine again.
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Jonah » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:41 pm

Lynch steps back into Twin Peaks as Cole and brings a sense of rejuvenation into some of the scenes.

Maybe it's just because I'm tired from rewatching so many episodes last night, but I didn't find this one to be as brilliant as I had remembered it on this latest rewatch. Now don't get me wrong. It's still a very good episode. It's just, I spent more time analysing and paying attention to all the scenes in Episodes 23 & 24 (and the ones before), sort of trying to find the best bits in what are generally considered weaker episodes, only to be surprised by how much good stuff was to be found in those episodes, that I went into this one remembering it as being one of the best - and was surprised to find that, apart from the diner scene, it wasn't as brilliant as I remembered it.

I think it's still as good as the previous episodes, but apart from the diner scene I don't think it's necessarily better per se. There's still an awful lot of Audrey and John Justice Wheeler here and a lot of the Donna/Ben subplot.

To begin with, the opening scene is mostly good. The sound effects here are very strong. The scene itself is unusual, it's suspenseful but also a little soapy and OTT. And I don't think it ever makes a huge amount of sense plotwise.

But at least it serves as a catalyst to get Harry back into uniform and back to the Sheriff's Station for an amusing hangover cure talk with Coop.

And Harry's not the only one getting back into uniform! This is the episode where Coop finally sheds the flannel and is back in his suit.

Loving the bonsai plant - but surprised none of them guess it might be dodgy, especially when it's meant to be sent from Josie.

(And even if they didn't twig to the bonsai plant, considering Earle has actually been in the station to their knowledge before, shouldn't they be suspicious of bugs anyway?)

I have often wondered if Cole knows - or senses - the plant might be bugged and if his "BONSAI!!" shout was done on purpose.

Skipping ahead to the diner scene, I think this is the scene that elevates the episode. It's just a wonderful scene. And it really feels like Lynch is behind it - or behind some of it.

There's real chemistry here between Coop and Annie.

The penguin joke moment is great.

There's great chemistry here between Harry and Coop too. I love seeing how happy both of them look.

And I love the Cole/Shelly moment - and the Log Lady cameo.

It's all pure gold. And arguably maybe the first time Peaks showed it's humourous and light-hearted side without being slapstick, goofy or just plain bad (I'm looking at you, Episode 19).

For the first time, I noticed something small - Lynch seems to laugh or almost mess up his line when he's talking to Shelly about the poem? Anyone else catch this?

All in all, a great sequence here in the Double R - and one of the best moments ever.

But, that scene aside, is this episode really better than 23, 24 or 26 and 27? I don't know.

Donna following her mother to the Great Northern is okay but it really should be more intriguing, and while the Ben/Eileen interaction does hint at an interesting backstory it's just a bit too soapy for me. I do think this plot might have had legs, though, had the show been renewed for another season. And I do like Audrey showing Donna her secret spy corridor.

I also sort of like Doc Hayward in his scene with Donna. There's a harder edge to him here that we haven't seen too often before (maybe with Harriet in the Pilot), but he's even harder here, revealing some flaws to his seemingly more perfect character.

I do really like the little scene with Annie and Shelly talking about Miss Twin Peaks and Cooper.

The Windom/Leo stuff in the cabin is only okay this time around.

And while I do sort of like the Audrey/Windom scene, I feel it could have been stronger or more menacing, like his scene with Donna. I noticed here that in one of the shots on the blu-ray the quality is quite low (the mid-close-up of Audrey/Windom side-by-side) but when it cuts back to close-ups of Audrey and Windom, it's remastered again. Maybe they didn't have a way to master this one shot - or only a low-quality shot to work with - or did they just miss out on mastering this?

Andy spelunking in front of Lucy seems a perfect Andy/Lucy moment. But it veers a little too close to slapstick or Episode 19 for me.

The Audrey/'Good Ben' scenes didn't interest me that much. But I did find the shot of Johnny Horne outside shooting fake water buffalo interesting. Was this a new scene filmed for this episode - or did it reuse footage from the deleted scene of him and Jacoby from Season 1 that was never used? (We do hear him in the background throughout this scene too.)

The Owl Cave stuff is fun enough I suppose - but it's also not that great and I think it's a shame Owl Cave never figured into the plot more.

I think the debate will continue about whether it's this episode, 24, or 23 that gets the show back on form. I like the Josie/Bob/LMFAP stuff in 23, so I can see an argument for that. And of course 24 is the first official episode of this last six-episode stretch, back after the series was put on hiatus. And the case for this one would be that Lynch is back - and the great scene in the diner. Either way, the show starts to come back somewhere in one of these episodes.

Oh, and I do like the scene with Annie and Coop at the bar in the Great Northern. It's a lovely scene. I've read the "Annie might be from another time and place/lodge spirt" theories and I can see that. But it could just also be the writers trying to characterise her as someone who went to a convent as troubled scene. Though she does seem to have been out of the world for a lot longer. So maybe there's something to those theories.

The closing scene with Earle in Owl Cave is not particularly strong.

All in all, a very good episode - but not as amazing as I'd remembered. The highlight is that long scene in the diner and the fact that Lynch is back.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:04 am

Jonah wrote:Maybe it's just because I'm tired from rewatching so many episodes last night, but I didn't find this one to be as brilliant as I had remembered it on this latest rewatch. Now don't get me wrong. It's still a very good episode. It's just, I spent more time analysing and paying attention to all the scenes in Episodes 23 & 24 (and the ones before), sort of trying to find the best bits in what are generally considered weaker episodes, only to be surprised by how much good stuff was to be found in those episodes, that I went into this one remembering it as being one of the best - and was surprised to find that, apart from the diner scene, it wasn't as brilliant as I remembered it.

I think it's still as good as the previous episodes, but apart from the diner scene I don't think it's necessarily better per se. There's still an awful lot of Audrey and John Justice Wheeler here and a lot of the Donna/Ben subplot.

(....)

I think the debate will continue about whether it's this episode, 24, or 23 that gets the show back on form. I like the Josie/Bob/LMFAP stuff in 23, so I can see an argument for that. And of course 24 is the first official episode of this last six-episode stretch, back after the series was put on hiatus. And the case for this one would be that Lynch is back - and the great scene in the diner. Either way, the show starts to come back somewhere in one of these episodes.


I'll never quite understamd the consensus that the show had some sort of resurgence in quality in the mid-20s episodes. I think there's something to like in every episode/era of the show, but this stretch still feels a long ways from what TP should be, despite some enjoyable stuff. I actually like Episode 23 for its goofy soapy charms (and O'Herlihy and Warner's fun hamminess), 24 doesn't do much for me (although many seem to think it's a strong episode, I don't see it), 25 has that one terrific sequence as you noted but is otherwise par for the course, 26 is unmemorable, 27 has a few great flourishes courtesy of Gyllenhaal that somewhat compensate for a mediocre script, 28 is super weak sauce (half of it is a freaking musical -- how does this show even exist in the same universe as the Pilot?), and 29 is of course its own insane brilliant thing.
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Jonah
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Jonah » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:18 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I'll never quite understamd the consensus that the show had some sort of resurgence in quality in the mid-20s episodes. I think there's something to like in every episode/era of the show, but this stretch still feels a long ways from what TP should be, despite some enjoyable stuff. I actually like Episode 23 for its goofy soapy charms (and O'Herlihy and Warner's fun hamminess), 24 doesn't do much for me (although many seem to think it's a strong episode, I don't see it), 25 has that one terrific sequence as you noted but is otherwise par for the course, 26 is unmemorable, 27 has a few great flourishes courtesy of Gyllenhaal that somewhat compensate for a mediocre script, 28 is super weak sauce (half of it is a freaking musical -- how does this show even exist in the same universe as the Pilot?), and 29 is of course its own insane brilliant thing.

Yeah, on this most recent rewatch I'd have to agree. The final few episodes before 29 is not really a resurgence or "back to form" at all. I think it's more an "improvement" over 17-22 (I actually found a few more moments in 17 - 22 to like than I'd remembered this time around, but it's still a pretty weak stretch), but the last stretch (29 aside) is definitely not a return to form, if form means Episode 14 or Pilot. Then again, I think the show always had lows and, um, peaks. :) Leaving 29 out of the mix, I think 23 and 27 have the best moments of the final stretch. I agree with your assessments of the other episodes - a few nice moments in 25, 24, 26, and 28 but fewer and further in between and not as strong.
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Snailhead » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:59 am

Brilliant finale aside, I wholeheartedly agree that the last stretch of S2 does not represent a return to form.
I do really enjoy the scenes with Cole in the diner, as well as the (mostly) excellent Episode 27, but otherwise nope.
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Poiuyt » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:03 pm

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Re: Episode 25

Postby kitty666cats » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:13 pm

HagbardCeline wrote:In the scene where Audrey runs into Wyndom Earle in the library, is it just my copy or is there a shot that looks like a bad VHS recording even on the restored Blu Ray? It's right where he says something about his mind wandering. Then it cuts to a close up of his face and looks fine again.


You are absolutely right about this. It's on every version of the episode I've ever seen, haven't seen the Blu Ray but sounds like it is on there, too!
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Soolsma » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:06 am

Noticed that too. Weird. Maybe they lost the original footage of that shot and were unable to restore it in hd?
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri May 01, 2020 8:01 pm

Jones is a weird character. In both the previous episode and this one, she is oddly cheerful exacting Eckhardt’s posthumous revenge. She doesn’t seem upset at all that he died, and especially with the puzzle box stuff, it feels almost like Eckhardt dying was part of his plan all along. Eckhardt and especially Jones are really undeveloped characters, almost pure archetypes with no actual human motivation driving them.

There’s a lot of really well-executed comedy in this episode, which is something the show generally wasn’t doing so well at this point. The material in this episode (like the repeated hangover remedy shtick) is motivated by character and situation, as opposed to dumb slapstick. I wish the show had stuck to this type of humor more in later season 2. In fact, other than a mercifully brief Nadine & Mike pop-in, the “sitcom” plots are completely absent in this episode!

My continuing mission to keep track of what Coop and Gordon do and don’t know at this point...Cooper is apparently surprised that Earle worked with Blue Book (which is a separate operation from Blue Rose, so maybe he is sincerely surprised...but he might also be acting for Harry). Gordon claims that all Earle’s activities with Blue Book are redacted...do we believe him? Cooper mentions Major Briggs, and Gordon immediately redirects the conversation to talk about sausages and going to get breakfast. He’s a slick one, that Gordon. My guess is that Dale/Gordon/Garland still haven’t had their “Judy” talk, but I do believe Cooper has told Gordon about Garland’s work with Blue Book, and Gordon is trying not to say too much in front of Harry and Will.

I hate to be a broken record, but Cooper tells Diane it’s Thursday. Donna, Audrey, Mike and even Nadine are all skipping school. Sigh.

TR really enriches the “good Ben” storyline in S2. Knowing that it’s a truly sincere lifelong character development, and not just a plot gimmick, gives a lot more depth to everything Ben says and does. The material with Eileen really informs Ben’s arc with Beverly and his refusal to put himself in the middle of another marriage after destroying both his own family and the Haywards’. The scene with Audrey is one I’ve never really liked because it doesn’t adequately address all that’s gone on between Ben and Audrey, but again, Ben’s remorse feels much more real to me in light of what we see of his lonely existence in TR. His vow to build a life of happiness for the family is poignant when the audience is armed with the knowledge that it’s too little too late, and he is going to lose the wife and children (and the not-yet-existent grandchild) he has finally learned to appreciate and value far too late in life for it to matter. In TR, L/F really transformed Ben from a soap opera cliché (albeit a really delightful one) into a tragic figure, and the “pine weasel” arc suddenly feels much richer for it. It’s also nice that he at least mentions Laura.

Likewise, the Donna/Will scene feels much stronger in light of the fact that this isn’t just an artificial conflict to give the characters something to do. We now know from Mark’s books that Eileen’s affair with Ben tore the Hayward family apart and sent Donna on a sort of spiral downward. Warren Frost’s performance in that scene has a resigned sadness that I hadn’t really appreciated before, and Dunham shoots it beautifully, making nice use of the staircase and stained glass windows on that set. The stakes of this whole storyline feel so much higher knowing that L/F committed to the reality and the aftermath in TR and the books. Strangely, in this go-round, I feel more invested in this corner of the universe than I do in the Earle stuff, at least at this juncture.

Whenever people complain that Annie wasn’t in TR, I sort of cynically point out that “How’s Annie” was just a memorable phrase to show that Cooper wasn’t really Cooper: Annie’s fate isn’t the point of the S2 cliffhanger, and her character was only in Dale’s life for a few days 25 years ago, and isn’t truly that important to his arc. Well, I have to say, I always forget how much I truly like Annie and her dynamic with Dale. She does seem to really make a huge impact on him in an admittedly very brief period, and part of me actually does wish TR had found a place for him to acknowledge her in some way, even just with a line of dialogue.

This old post of mine in the Part 17 thread discusses the evolution of the various symbols/glyphs/tattoos/etc. in the mythology: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=3777&p=112813&hilit=“Owl+cave”#p112813 It still drives me nuts that Dale’s napkin drawing uses diamonds as opposed to the triangles on Briggs’s tattoo. Really damn sloppy, as Duke Leto says in Dune.

Lynch’s pronunciation of “anticdote” cracks me up. Ontkean is really really charming as he sweetly mocks his twitterpated friend (turning the tables after Coop calling out Harry/Josie in Episode 1 and Ed/Norma in Episode 3). I think that might be my favorite Ontkean scene in the whole show, although the scenes of him waiting for Coop to emerge from the Lodge in Episode 29 are up there too.

Is this the only time we see Dale wearing glasses?! (Other than his disguise in Episode 6/7.)

As a career editor, Dunham had a good eye for where deleted footage from old episodes might fit. He squeezes in a few shots of the Johnny deleted scene from Episode 1 here, just as he used discarded Pilot footage of James riding his bike at the start of Episode 18. It gives some nice context to the Ben/Audrey scene, reminding us that Ben’s family extends beyond Audrey (something that’s often easy to forget), and that Ben’s adult son will never be his RFK.

It’s also funny hearing Ben talk about Jack and Bobby, given that L/F’s first aborted collaboration was the controversial Goddess project (eventually retitled Venus Descending—“The babe without the arms”!), which allegedly painted the brothers in a less than stalwart light (see also Dale’s musings in Episode 1).

I have to say, Ben’s carrot just doesn’t give him quite the same flair as the cigar, which felt more like an appendage than a prop. I do love him pulling a carrot out of his jacket pocket and handing it to Jack.

EDIT: Almost forgot!

This episode in Dale’s Diet:
— “Surefire cure for a hangover, Harry. You take a glass of nearly frozen unstrained tomato juice, you pop a couple of oysters in there and you drink it down. Breathe deep. Next you take a mound, and I mean a mound, of sweetbreads. Sauté ’em with some chestnuts and some Canadian bacon. Finally, biscuits. Big biscuits. Smothered in gravy. Now here’s where it gets tricky. You’re gonna need some anchovies—” (Harry runs off to vomit, which was clearly Cooper’s intended goal)
— Cooper offers Harry further hangover aid: “Bicarbonate of soda. The ultimate digestive aid. Harry, quaff in good health.”
— Coffee at the Double R (Annie: “Cup of deep black Joe?” Cooper: “You bet”); he orders a turkey sandwich, whole wheat, lettuce, dollop of mayonnaise; Annie refills his coffee
— He appears to be carrying a Granny Smith apple when talking to Diane as he enters the Great Northern dining room; he pockets it when he spots Annie
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Re: Episode 25

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat May 02, 2020 10:47 am

Something else just occurred to me: Cooper tells Annie he wishes he could see life through Annie’s eyes: “It’s all new to you. Everything.” Dale gets this wish in TR when he re-enters the world as a literal blank slate!

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