Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

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LateReg
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:15 pm

I know this has nothing to do with the plot, per se, but metaphorically, or whatever, Mr. C is Cooper's id, or whatever, so of course he wants to stay as far away from Cooper and exist on his own and run rampant. Getting too close to Cooper would be risking unwanted mediation or suppression (/death).
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:39 pm

Regarding Naido/Diane in the Purple Room, I've always been confused as to what she was trying to get Cooper to do. She keeps him from exiting through 15, where he presumably would have switched places with DoppelCoop in the car, and DoppelCoop would have been sent back to the Red Room. Why wouldn't she want this to happen - is it because if he switched with him, he would be held accountable for everything that DoppelCoop did, and no one would believe him? When she flips the electricity on top of the space box, did she want him to follow her falling into space? Did she know she would exit at Jack Rabbit's Palace and wanted Cooper to do the same where they would be close to the TP Sheriff's department and where he would be safe, or did she mean for him to go through gateway 3 where he would switch places with Dougie? Why would she want Cooper to do that? Did she even know about "3?" What is she trying to accomplish by turning the electricity on and why doesn't she want Cooper to switch places with his doppelgänger/tulpa?
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby madeleineferguson » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:46 am

So BOB was afraid of Cooper? I don't know...

The whole story of Lois Duffy murdering her Tulpa (or was it vice versa?) foreshadowed this ultimate end sequence between BOB and Cooper which never happened. To me, this is one of the major signs that Season 3 was not the conclusion of the series. Why mention that encounter, with all of that amazing foreshadowing, only to drop it?

Yes, Mr. C is gone. He's done, burning in a chair in the Lodge. But we have no real proof that BOB was truly defeated, or that he couldn't return in some other form. The notion that some random British guy with a plastic green glove could eliminate the evil of BOB with a punch seems so ludicrous, which is probably why that entire fight sequence with Freddie in Part 17 feels so lame. I think BOB was stopped, for that moment. But annihilated? No.

I hope Season 4 begins with an owl flying over the Twin Peaks Sheriff Station, magnetically gathering the remnants of BOB as it passes.

LateReg wrote:I know this has nothing to do with the plot, per se, but metaphorically, or whatever, Mr. C is Cooper's id, or whatever, so of course he wants to stay as far away from Cooper and exist on his own and run rampant. Getting too close to Cooper would be risking unwanted mediation or suppression (/death).
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:09 am

I'll just copy/post my reply from the other thread since it's in both:

I think BOB is done (and I loved Freddie and that ending for him - I found it very satisfying that this sweet naif took him apart). But I've been wrong before.

I don't think it was ever between Cooper and BOB or ever will be. BOB was Laura's nemesis and Laura beat him in FWWM. BOB got dispatched for good(?) by the forces of the White Lodge in Season 3. The true enemy is Judy, and more importantly, man's own weakness - Cooper's own pride. If he'd left well enough alone and not resurrected his 25-year-old manchild's scheme to take "two birds with one stone" and save Laura, everything could've come to a better end.

To be clear, I don't believe it was a purely personal mission. I think Cooper also intended to use Laura to defeat Judy, as he, Briggs and Cole had discussed - but I don't believe he needed to rewrite history to do that. Saving Laura was personal - he did it because he wanted to be the ultimate hero and rewrite his own past with Caroline. Two birds, one stone. Man's weakness, man's overreach. Same as Episode 29.

(I also think the Lois Duffy story is largely there to foreshadow the Diane reveal.)
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:43 am

Mr C was "contaminated" with BOB, so not all of his characteristics can be attributed to Cooper. And BOB was only an egg, just one egg of many, which means that defeating "him" would not terminate "evil," not in a million years.

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ~ Nietzsche


Did Dale Cooper become that monster when he tried to defeat "death"?
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:09 am

madeleineferguson wrote:So BOB was afraid of Cooper? I don't know...

LateReg wrote:I know this has nothing to do with the plot, per se, but metaphorically, or whatever, Mr. C is Cooper's id, or whatever, so of course he wants to stay as far away from Cooper and exist on his own and run rampant. Getting too close to Cooper would be risking unwanted mediation or suppression (/death).


If your quote is in response to mine, then I should clarify that I never said anything about Bob. I was talking about Mr. C as a metaphorical piece of Cooper's psyche. Bob has nothing to do with what I was saying, which is that Mr. C would not want to risk an encounter with Cooper, because to risk that would be to risk being suppressed whereas he is now free to roam. Cooper usually supresses his dark side to the point that he doesn't even acknowledge it. Acknowledging that dark side is part of what his arc is all about. Once again, this is all metaphorical based on the idea of the different Coopers being part of Cooper's psyche/identity. And it has nothing to do with Bob.

But I agree with you that Bob wasn't truly defeated as I don't think true evil can be defeated (and Bob resides within man, a representation of their evil). However, if the series were to go on, we may never see Bob again if only because Silva is dead and Judy is the larger evil, perhaps.
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:12 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:I can understand Mr. C outsourcing low level assassinations in order to free himself up for more important stuff, but eliminating Cooper would be absolute top priority, wouldn't it? The fact that Mr. C stays well away from him could imply that he is worried about the outcome of the meeting.


One of the ways I interpret this is that Cooper & his doppelganger cannot meet, it's like matter & anti-matter. I see it as significant that Cooper/DougieCoop never enters Mr C's presence until he's dead. This also kind of forces us to assume that the various iterations of Cooper are the same individual, since one of them never meets another.
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:03 am

Saturn's child wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:I can understand Mr. C outsourcing low level assassinations in order to free himself up for more important stuff, but eliminating Cooper would be absolute top priority, wouldn't it? The fact that Mr. C stays well away from him could imply that he is worried about the outcome of the meeting.


One of the ways I interpret this is that Cooper & his doppelganger cannot meet, it's like matter & anti-matter. I see it as significant that Cooper/DougieCoop never enters Mr C's presence until he's dead. This also kind of forces us to assume that the various iterations of Cooper are the same individual, since one of them never meets another.

Yeah, I'm on board with that. Back in the day when I saw the final scene with Cooper smashing his face into the mirror, I was convinced that it was actually Dale corrupted by BOB, not some "evil clone" or what have you. I've basically stayed with that and feel that had Cooper gone through the socket without the switch being thrown, that he would not have emerged into the reality where there is a Dale with BOB, but rather into one where Dale Cooper had up and vanished from Twin Peaks 25 years earlier, just as Chester Desmond had from Deer Meadow. It makes sense to my mind, because how can Dale be in The Red Room but also out in the world unless there are multiple realities running simultaneously? It's like halves or facets of a whole, or as you put it, versions of a self.
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:26 am

Hester Prynne wrote:Regarding Naido/Diane in the Purple Room, I've always been confused as to what she was trying to get Cooper to do. She keeps him from exiting through 15, where he presumably would have switched places with DoppelCoop in the car, and DoppelCoop would have been sent back to the Red Room. Why wouldn't she want this to happen - is it because if he switched with him, he would be held accountable for everything that DoppelCoop did, and no one would believe him? When she flips the electricity on top of the space box, did she want him to follow her falling into space? Did she know she would exit at Jack Rabbit's Palace and wanted Cooper to do the same where they would be close to the TP Sheriff's department and where he would be safe, or did she mean for him to go through gateway 3 where he would switch places with Dougie? Why would she want Cooper to do that? Did she even know about "3?" What is she trying to accomplish by turning the electricity on and why doesn't she want Cooper to switch places with his doppelgänger/tulpa?


A partial and short version answer is that it's about electricity. Cooper was supposed to exit through a DC (direct current) socket (the cigarette lighter in Mr.C's car) but instead he comes out a AC (alternating current) socket in the house across from the 119 mother. I think that is why his memory becomes scrambled until he resets it. Naido flicks the switch from one to the other - presumably she knows about some trap and instead hides Cooper away in Rancho Rosa. To me it doesn't look like Naido falls intently.
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby Cappy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:05 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:Regarding Naido/Diane in the Purple Room, I've always been confused as to what she was trying to get Cooper to do. She keeps him from exiting through 15, where he presumably would have switched places with DoppelCoop in the car, and DoppelCoop would have been sent back to the Red Room. Why wouldn't she want this to happen - is it because if he switched with him, he would be held accountable for everything that DoppelCoop did, and no one would believe him? When she flips the electricity on top of the space box, did she want him to follow her falling into space? Did she know she would exit at Jack Rabbit's Palace and wanted Cooper to do the same where they would be close to the TP Sheriff's department and where he would be safe, or did she mean for him to go through gateway 3 where he would switch places with Dougie? Why would she want Cooper to do that? Did she even know about "3?" What is she trying to accomplish by turning the electricity on and why doesn't she want Cooper to switch places with his doppelgänger/tulpa?


Agreed. Naido's motivations aren't totally clear here. But then again, I never really understood Mr. C's plan in relation to Naido's actions in the Mauve Room.

It was clearly Mr. C's plan for Coop to be sent to Dougie's body in Las Vegas, as evidenced by the fact that he had hitmen waiting there. (Assuming of course, that the Lorraine character who hired the hitmen is working for Mr. C via the black box in Argentina, and that the black box isn't instead tied to the Jeffries impostor who is trying to kill Mr. C. Also, this assumes that Mr. C created the Dougie tulpa, which I think is evidenced by the fact that Dougie's wedding ring ends up in Maj. Briggs' stomach.)

So why did Naido make such a big point of switching the big lever which allowed Cooper to be sent into harms way (in a half vegetative state at that), rather than allow him to take Mr. C's place? Perhaps Mr. C's car wreck would've killed Cooper instantly, or maybe Cooper coming back into the real world through Mr. C would've been psychologically overwhelming, as he'd have to integrate the memories of all of Mr. C's heinous acts into his memory all at once. This assumes that Naido is always benevolent and attempting to help Cooper.

And of course, there is also the possibility that the "15" gate lead not to Mr. C's car but instead to Glastonberry Grove at the beginning of ep. 18, Cooper's alternate escape from the Red Room. If Naido was Diane, she might've wanted to avoid this option as a way of avoiding any sort of reunion with Cooper.

There's also the glass box in NYC -- was that part of Mr. C's plan for sending Cooper into Dougie, and the Experiment just happened to destroy it while chasing Cooper, or was it just a trap for the Experiment that Cooper accidentally fell into?
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:48 am

Cappy wrote: This assumes that Naido is always benevolent and attempting to help Cooper.


Exactly. After Diane is released from the Naido prison she looks just like Marjorie Cameron (whom TSHOTP describes as more than a little Judy). And for some reason this is also the exact moment Dale get's trapped in the 2:53 loop. Also her name could be a very clear indicater that she is not who she appears - maybe it's a zero and not the letter O. Zerodian not Diane at all.

I think it will take me a few more viewings to really figure this one out.
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Re: Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Postby Cappy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:00 am

eyeboogers wrote:Exactly. After Diane is released from the Naido prison she looks just like Marjorie Cameron (whom TSHOTP describes as more than a little Judy). And for some reason this is also the exact moment Dale get's trapped in the 2:53 loop. Also her name could be a very clear indicater that she is not who she appears - maybe it's a zero and not the letter O. Zerodian not Diane at all.

I think it will take me a few more viewings to really figure this one out.


My personal feeling about Naido is that she/it doesn't have a fixed identity, rather she/it functions as a sort of mirror of whoever views her. Naido is like a blank slate that other characters can project their dreams or fears onto. I say that because that scene where Naido is "revealed" to be Diane occurs with the Cooper face overlay following Mr. C's destruction, and I think the destruction of Cooper's doppelganger created some psychic event for Cooper and his surroundings. If we were to employ the ego-superego-id model, perhaps Mr. C is the ego of a unified Cooper, and eliminating the ego allows the id's unconscious instincts to rush to the fore. The barrier between Cooper and the Sheriff's Station becomes blurred and Cooper unconsciously begins projecting all kinds of things onto the world around him (or is it transference?), and everything we see during this sequence is some mix of Cooper's subjective perspective on events and literal manifestation of his unconscious instincts, embodied in the appearance of Diane.

So maybe this psychological reflective quality isn't an exclusive feature of Naido, perhaps instead just a result of Mr. C's destruction. But either way, I feel like there is nothing about Naido that is inherently Diane... Maybe she could just as easily turn into James if Donna looked at it/her, or Josie if Sheriff Truman looked at it/her (assuming that desire is what is projected onto Naido -- I don't see why Naido couldn't also be a representation as guilt, like turning into Laura when looked at by Leland, or... Diane when looked at by Cooper). That's not to say it isn't relevant that Naido turned into Diane turning the scene in ep. 17. I think it was important for Cooper's character to see her, be symbolically absolved of his/Mr. C's guilt, and to have Diane as a guide/companion up through their weird sex scene in ep. 18. But then he wakes up in a different hotel, and he no longer sees Diane, as the psychological fissure that was causing him to project her out into the world has closed up, leaving him as the dry, unexpressive Richard.

The pain expressed by Diane during the awkward sex scene seems to suggest that her pain is real, and her character is very real, but the fact that she covers Cooper's face during this indicates that whether she's real or not, he's unwilling to see or acknowledge her hurt. Cooper likes the idea of Diane, and likes seeing her, but he doesn't want to see her when she forces him to acknowledge certain things about himself. So just like Cooper's id was pulled out into the open by the destruction of Mr. C, his id was stuffed back into the dark closet of his subconscious by "Diane" covered his face during intercourse.

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