Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Moderators: BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D, Annie

User avatar
AXX°N N.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby AXX°N N. » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:43 pm

4815162342 wrote:
AXX°N N. wrote:
4815162342 wrote:
Informing a performance doesn't make it useful for tracking dates for plot continuity. Also, no matter what informs a performance, it's still just saying the lines on the page, and if the people writing those lines don't care about the Diary, the result won't reflect it very much.

The people writing the lines do care, though. You see portions of the book someone took the time to write out in longhand in Laura's prop diary as she flips through it in FWWM. They even cared enough to continue an entry Jennifer wrote 25 years ago, which until then was partially unfinished, on-screen and legible in the new season, as Mr. Reindeer has tracked. They've also previously taken lines from the diary and had the actors read them aloud. Whether Lynch read it or not, which iirc has conflicting accounts, it's clear that the production itself has involved its content consistently over the course of each production, whether literally or performatively. If all we should pay attention to are TV+FWWM, then the diary or at least selections of it exists there already, anyway. And it's not as if the original series + movie were ever free of their own continuity strangeness.
A few tiny snippets do not outweigh the outrageous number of discontinuities with the show + fwwm. For all we know (and I believe this happened), they gave those to JL to include, not the other way. Annie page is not in the book...because fwwm didn't exist yet.

Do you have a source on that? That would be interesting if true, and makes me wonder how long they had planned that entry that gets continued. Was it written as of season 3, or was it always sitting around somewhere, but not included in the published diary for some reason?

I still don't see why that should cause the entire diary to be thrown out, though. FWWM is as overwriting of prior established continuity in terms of the series as it is for the book. That's sort of always how TP canon has worked; it's canon until it isn't.

The creative forces, to me, have always clearly put stock in the expanded material. When you have Frost, who co-wrote the old and new season, rereading old material such as the Cooper autobio to refresh himself on his understanding of the character, I find it very hard to be dismissive of that output. When he even references events in the Access Guide (albeit paralleled to further hint at a diverging timeline) in his books, it's clear this content is at least informing his contributions to the material.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2919
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:06 am

The show and FWWM create their own continuity errors (such as the many entries Laura wrote after giving the diary to Harold, as I detailed above). And the book was a New York Times best seller. It’s a little dismissive to call it fan fic when Mark gave Jennifer the outline of what story points he needed/wanted her to write. I think it’s a great book, and I love Sheryl’s audiobook reading. I have the books classified as second-tier canon in my mind (wherever they conflict with the filmed material, the filmed material trumps), but I consider then a valuable part of the TP experience. YMMV of course.
4815162342
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:46 am

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby 4815162342 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:29 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:The show and FWWM create their own continuity errors (such as the many entries Laura wrote after giving the diary to Harold, as I detailed above). And the book was a New York Times best seller. It’s a little dismissive to call it fan fic when Mark gave Jennifer the outline of what story points he needed/wanted her to write. I think it’s a great book, and I love Sheryl’s audiobook reading. I have the books classified as second-tier canon in my mind (wherever they conflict with the filmed material, the filmed material trumps), but I consider then a valuable part of the TP experience. YMMV of course.

I think Mark Frost's books are basically rendered fan fic by what Season 3 became as well. It's all about what you value, and for me the core of why TP is interesting or worth talking about is simply the TV show(s) and FWWM. The other stuff, since it doesn't fit at all, is rendered into non-canon (or in slightly inaccurate modern terms: fan fic).
User avatar
dreamshake
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby dreamshake » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:46 pm

if you're going to say a book written only by one of the co-creators is fan fic you can also say a movie directed and written by only one of the co-creators is fan fic. you can ignore them because you don't like how they fit within your conception of the series or you can not reconcile the differences between the book and screen or even because you don't think they're successfully executed, but I find it especially disrespectful to mark frost to imply his novels are not a full part of his creation.
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Jasper » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:52 pm

dreamshake wrote:if you're going to say a book written only by one of the co-creators is fan fic you can also say a movie directed and written by only one of the co-creators is fan fic. you can ignore them because you don't like how they fit within your conception of the series or you can not reconcile the differences between the book and screen or even because you don't think they're successfully executed, but I find it especially disrespectful to mark frost to imply his novels are not a full part of his creation.


I largely agree with you, though it must be said that the situation is such that it's ultimately Lynch filming the thing, at least from episode 29 on, and for this reason he sort of has the final word. He can film or not film certain things, he can add new things, and he can cut things (or to some extent alter their meaning) in editing.

Frost can and does do some things like this with his books as well, but TP began life as a tv show, and it would be tough to argue that the filmed material is not the central product, with the other elements being peripheral and supplementary.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2919
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Jasper wrote:
dreamshake wrote:if you're going to say a book written only by one of the co-creators is fan fic you can also say a movie directed and written by only one of the co-creators is fan fic. you can ignore them because you don't like how they fit within your conception of the series or you can not reconcile the differences between the book and screen or even because you don't think they're successfully executed, but I find it especially disrespectful to mark frost to imply his novels are not a full part of his creation.


I largely agree with you, though it must be said that the situation is such that it's ultimately Lynch filming the thing, at least from episode 29 on, and for this reason he sort of has the final word. He can film or not film certain things, he can add new things, and he can cut things (or to some extent alter their meaning) in editing.

Frost can and does do some things like this with his books as well, but TP began life as a tv show, and it would be tough to argue that the filmed material is not the central product, with the other elements being peripheral and supplementary.


The counter to that (and I say this as a Lynch fan first) is that pre-E29, Mark (along with other collaborators under his supervision) was responsible for the vast majority of S1 and S2 in his position as what today would be called “show runner,” with sporadic (and undeniably iconic and incredibly significant) interjections by Lynch. While parts of the original series undeniably go awry, we would never have E29, FWWM or TR without the efforts of Frost, Peyton, etc. It’s impossible to discount the work of those other artists, because it’s all part of the journey, and Mark in particular is of course an indispensable voice from the Pilot up through Part 18.
User avatar
dreamshake
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby dreamshake » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:17 pm

keepin it 100 as always mr reindeer.
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Jasper » Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:01 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Jasper wrote:
dreamshake wrote:if you're going to say a book written only by one of the co-creators is fan fic you can also say a movie directed and written by only one of the co-creators is fan fic. you can ignore them because you don't like how they fit within your conception of the series or you can not reconcile the differences between the book and screen or even because you don't think they're successfully executed, but I find it especially disrespectful to mark frost to imply his novels are not a full part of his creation.


I largely agree with you, though it must be said that the situation is such that it's ultimately Lynch filming the thing, at least from episode 29 on, and for this reason he sort of has the final word. He can film or not film certain things, he can add new things, and he can cut things (or to some extent alter their meaning) in editing.

Frost can and does do some things like this with his books as well, but TP began life as a tv show, and it would be tough to argue that the filmed material is not the central product, with the other elements being peripheral and supplementary.


The counter to that (and I say this as a Lynch fan first) is that pre-E29, Mark (along with other collaborators under his supervision) was responsible for the vast majority of S1 and S2 in his position as what today would be called “show runner,” with sporadic (and undeniably iconic and incredibly significant) interjections by Lynch. While parts of the original series undeniably go awry, we would never have E29, FWWM or TR without the efforts of Frost, Peyton, etc. It’s impossible to discount the work of those other artists, because it’s all part of the journey, and Mark in particular is of course an indispensable voice from the Pilot up through Part 18.


I don't think that conflicts with what I said.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2919
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:56 am

Jasper wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Jasper wrote:
I largely agree with you, though it must be said that the situation is such that it's ultimately Lynch filming the thing, at least from episode 29 on, and for this reason he sort of has the final word. He can film or not film certain things, he can add new things, and he can cut things (or to some extent alter their meaning) in editing.

Frost can and does do some things like this with his books as well, but TP began life as a tv show, and it would be tough to argue that the filmed material is not the central product, with the other elements being peripheral and supplementary.


The counter to that (and I say this as a Lynch fan first) is that pre-E29, Mark (along with other collaborators under his supervision) was responsible for the vast majority of S1 and S2 in his position as what today would be called “show runner,” with sporadic (and undeniably iconic and incredibly significant) interjections by Lynch. While parts of the original series undeniably go awry, we would never have E29, FWWM or TR without the efforts of Frost, Peyton, etc. It’s impossible to discount the work of those other artists, because it’s all part of the journey, and Mark in particular is of course an indispensable voice from the Pilot up through Part 18.


I don't think that conflicts with what I said.


The gist of what you said seemed to be conflating “Lynch” with “filmed material.” Sorry if I misunderstood or mischaracterized. I know you didn’t mean to discredit Frost (you even started out by saying you largely agreed with dreamshake). Even though I was responding to you, my comments were more directed toward 4815162342, who began this line of discussion. It just annoys me that Frost’s contributions are so often ignored or even actively discounted.
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby AXX°N N. » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:13 pm

I'm really of the opinion that TP fans should feel spoiled in this regard. I mean, whatever you think of them as written materials for their own sake, the books as artistic efforts are not on the level of, like, the Star Wars expanded universe, or assasin-for-hire ghostwritten novelizations of films that exists only because they need to exist, and anyone could have found themselves with the gig. For the access guide, they used writers from the show and an actual town guide writer, Lynch got his daughter to write a book, Mark his brother, and Mark himself wrote books. That's absolutely a level of "in-house" effort not seen in tie-in franchising, and it's in line with the spirit of how close-knit the series was as a production. In fact, regarding side material, I think Twin Peaks is the best example I know of.

And just taking into account Frost's books, he's co-creator. That makes his clearly "primary" material to me, at the very least from the perspective of understanding his half of the intention and themes.

Read them or don't, but Twin Peaks was a franchise in the true sense of the word since the first season. It's part of the overall creative intent Frost had in mind for it as a property, and he's gone on record saying that.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
4815162342
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:46 am

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby 4815162342 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:49 am

dreamshake wrote:if you're going to say a book written only by one of the co-creators is fan fic you can also say a movie directed and written by only one of the co-creators is fan fic. you can ignore them because you don't like how they fit within your conception of the series or you can not reconcile the differences between the book and screen or even because you don't think they're successfully executed, but I find it especially disrespectful to mark frost to imply his novels are not a full part of his creation.

As I said, this is my perspective. You are free to consider the books the only real canon if you want, I'm not saying that's wrong. What I will say (without evidence) is that I think if the TV show didn't exist, no one would care about the books, and the only reason anyone cares about the books is the TV show.

Also, I'm not minimizing Mark Frost: everything he wrote that is in the show is canon, full stop. To give an example of Lynch non-canon: the weird stuff with Leland, Sarah and Laura on the Blu-ray (I forget what that's called).
User avatar
eyeboogers
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:15 am

4815162342 wrote:Also, I'm not minimizing Mark Frost: everything he wrote that is in the show is canon, full stop. To give an example of Lynch non-canon: the weird stuff with Leland, Sarah and Laura on the Blu-ray (I forget what that's called).


So, "Between Two Worlds" a filmed fiction interview with actors appearing in character, revealing current details of the lives of those characters, directed and written by one of the showrunners, and appearing on an official release, cannot be considered canon? That doesn't make any sense to me.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2919
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:05 am

eyeboogers wrote:
4815162342 wrote:Also, I'm not minimizing Mark Frost: everything he wrote that is in the show is canon, full stop. To give an example of Lynch non-canon: the weird stuff with Leland, Sarah and Laura on the Blu-ray (I forget what that's called).


So, "Between Two Worlds" a filmed fiction interview with actors appearing in character, revealing current details of the lives of those characters, directed and written by one of the showrunners, and appearing on an official release, cannot be considered canon? That doesn't make any sense to me.


I don’t consider it literal canon because I don’t believe a film director who looks oddly like Gordon Cole conducted a cross-dimensional interview with the Palmers. But I consider the content of what they say to be canon.
User avatar
eyeboogers
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:13 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I don’t consider it literal canon because I don’t believe a film director who looks oddly like Gordon Cole conducted a cross-dimensional interview with the Palmers. But I consider the content of what they say to be canon.


I think that is where the two worlds become relevant.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2919
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Laura's diary pages (Potential Spoiler?)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:03 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I don’t consider it literal canon because I don’t believe a film director who looks oddly like Gordon Cole conducted a cross-dimensional interview with the Palmers. But I consider the content of what they say to be canon.


I think that is where the two worlds become relevant.


Fair point. It arguably reflects the overlap with our reality some have spoken about seeing in TR, particularly in the final scene of P18.

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests