Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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whoisalhedges
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:34 am

Ragnell wrote:Timing it this way means if the Dougie plan doesn't work he has at least managed to royally screw over Good Dale by getting him into a car accident AND having enough incriminating stuff in the trunk to send him to federal prison.

Jesus... in all my thoughts about this show over the past couple months (and to my shame, I've thought of little else), I had never thought of that. If poor Coop had exchanged places with his doppelgänger as he "should" have, he'd be royally screwed. :(
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:46 pm

Jasper wrote:
DeepBlueSeed wrote:I'm increasingly fascinated by Jeffries. Reading up on theories about him written prior to The Return (how, in the Lodge, because of the weird effects of time, Jeffries may have encountered Cooper or his doppelgänger, and that's why he responds to Cooper the way he does in FWWM)


I thought that was what we were supposed to take from it right off the bat. Did people have other theories about it or something? I don't see any other way to read it.


Sorry, taken a while to respond. No, I suppose not, I just haven't seen FWWM in a long while, so it was just a scene I couldn't remember altogether (and, I suppose, because of the offhand way he refers to Cooper I thought it was more a subtle nod rather than a direct indication to them having encountered each other). With the events unfolding as they are in The Return it was just cool to take a step back and appreciate that earlier moment, to give a little insight into the debate into whose side Jeffries is on.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:46 am

There’s still something a little odd about Albert acting as the straight-faced mouthpiece for all this mythological mumbo jumbo. I know, people have justified it by saying every supernatural investigation team needs a Dana Scully. But he doesn’t come across as a Scully in S3 — in the original show, he was an utter cynic whenever Coop would bring up the supernatural, confining his findings to the Planet Earth. In S3, however, he spouts this stuff without reservation, seemingly fully believing it. I guess a lot can happen in 25 years, but it’s an odd 180-degree turnaround. One of Albert’s many contradictions, I guess. His path is a strange and difficult one.

I love Beymer, but I’m not quite sure what to make of his performance in this one. Ben’s grief over Richard’s crimes feels like it is supposed to play as sincere in the context of the scene, but the performance comes across like Ben is play-acting (it feels a lot like the S2 scene where Ben unsuccessfully attempts to show emotion after Cooper rescues Audrey from One-Eyed Jacks and gives him that wonderfully awkward hug). He’s fun to watch in the scene, but none of his reactions come across as honest. I guess maybe that’s just who Ben is?

The comment about Richard not having a father is interesting. It doesn’t seem like any of the townspeople suspect Dale of rape (we certainly don’t get the impression from this scene that Ben believes that). So who does Ben think is Richard’s father? Wheeler? For that matter, Wheeler himself would have no reason not to believe he was the father. Presumably Audrey and/or Ben would have contacted him. One never really knows, of course, but he came across as a pretty upstanding guy (err, aside from his seduction of an 18-year-old HS student)...but I guess he turned out to be a heel once a child came into the picture? I can’t think of any other explanation why he wouldn’t have been part of Richard’s life.

I’ve been generally opposed to the idea of continuity flubs in S3 and TSHoTP being intentional, but Ben bringing specific attention to Miriam’s last name here really caught my attention. I still think that “Hodges” on the envelope was a prop error, probably. But maybe DKL noticed and liked the ambiguity, and added this line? Whether intentional or not, the work is ours to interpret now, and I think this does play into the idea of malleable reality/subjective memory on a global scale that I have speculated DKL and (especially) Frost may be toying with.

I really think Clark Middleton gives one of the funniest performances in all of TP history. I can’t get enough of Charlie.

I love to imagine Harry receiving that room key. I really wonder why we couldn’t even at least hear his voice on the phone at some point, given that Ontkean was originally gung-ho to return.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote: I love to imagine Harry receiving that room key. I really wonder why we couldn’t even at least hear his voice on the phone at some point, given that Ontkean was originally gung-ho to return.


We've been led to believe there is a medical issue with Ontkean, but I am still suspicious that the true 'personal reason' is that Ontkean wasn't being offered as large a role as he was in the original series and it just wasn't worth his while to be involved in any way.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:55 pm

mtwentz wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote: I love to imagine Harry receiving that room key. I really wonder why we couldn’t even at least hear his voice on the phone at some point, given that Ontkean was originally gung-ho to return.


We've been led to believe there is a medical issue with Ontkean, but I am still suspicious that the true 'personal reason' is that Ontkean wasn't being offered as large a role as he was in the original series and it just wasn't worth his while to be involved in any way.


It was still a fairly large role though (assuming that introducing Frank was not part of the original plan).
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:There’s still something a little odd about Albert acting as the straight-faced mouthpiece for all this mythological mumbo jumbo. I know, people have justified it by saying every supernatural investigation team needs a Dana Scully. But he doesn’t come across as a Scully in S3 — in the original show, he was an utter cynic whenever Coop would bring up the supernatural, confining his findings to the Planet Earth. In S3, however, he spouts this stuff without reservation, seemingly fully believing it. I guess a lot can happen in 25 years, but it’s an odd 180-degree turnaround. One of Albert’s many contradictions, I guess. His path is a strange and difficult one.


Agreed, I just rewatched part 12 and Albert's character change is definitely something I noticed. The guy from the original show is the same one who's been on the Blue Rose task force all along? I guess theoretically he could still be aware/accept the presence of supernatural things but still consider Coop's methods like throwing rocks at cans frivolous or not grounded in reality.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:27 am

ThumbsUp wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:There’s still something a little odd about Albert acting as the straight-faced mouthpiece for all this mythological mumbo jumbo. I know, people have justified it by saying every supernatural investigation team needs a Dana Scully. But he doesn’t come across as a Scully in S3 — in the original show, he was an utter cynic whenever Coop would bring up the supernatural, confining his findings to the Planet Earth. In S3, however, he spouts this stuff without reservation, seemingly fully believing it. I guess a lot can happen in 25 years, but it’s an odd 180-degree turnaround. One of Albert’s many contradictions, I guess. His path is a strange and difficult one.


Agreed, I just rewatched part 12 and Albert's character change is definitely something I noticed. The guy from the original show is the same one who's been on the Blue Rose task force all along? I guess theoretically he could still be aware/accept the presence of supernatural things but still consider Coop's methods like throwing rocks at cans frivolous or not grounded in reality.


My assumption is that Albert wasn't yet part of the Blue Rose task force during the original series. He was more like Sam Stanley or Tamara Preston, on his way to induction and experiencing weird things but not fully informed or a believer yet. Or maybe doubles were something he was willing to accept, but an inhabiting spirit was too much at that point in time.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:08 am

Eyeboogers has pointed out that the “Albatross” jerky logo resembles the “Judy” symbol in part (circle and horns, albeit the horns are pointing the wrong direction). I also think the V-shape of the “steer’s head” portion of the logo calls to mind the Jumping Man/frogmoth beak, possibly implying a further link between the two entities that may or may not be inside Sarah. (Also note that, if Mr. C is holding the “Judy” playing card upside down in Part 2, the downward-facing spade obscured by the blacked-out circle would also approximate the beak shape.) Given the face-removing motif that goes on with the Palmer women, is it possible that the Jumping Man mask is actually the true face of Judy (who appears to be totally faceless other than a gaping mouth in her two onscreen appearances)? Note that the monkey in FWWM whispers Judy’s name when he takes off the mask. Did Judy remove her face at some point so it could be worn by other spirits? Or did Jumping Man or someone else steal it?

Much has been made of the fact that Charlie does in fact have a crystal ball on his desk, but I don’t recall anyone mentioning that he also has an hourglass — interesting giving that he and Audrey enter the Roadhouse as Vedder is singing “Out of Sand.” (Also just a weirdass thing to have on a desk.)

Trick seems to have the letter “B” tattooed on his spiritual mound finger. Not sure what to make of that, but it brings to mind the crossed-out “LB” tattoo on Sue’s hand in IE.

The opening scene (where Tammy is recruited to Blue Rose and Diane is deputized) is a weird one in terms of set and costume design. I mean, obviously the set was designed to evoke the Red Room (which, along with Diane invoking MfAP’s catch phrase, is a hint at her otherwordly origins...I think her entrance through the curtains might even be shot in reverse). And the bookshelves containing books and trophies call to mind the lair of another top secret group, the Bookhouse Boys (although I tend to doubt that was intentional on DKL’s part). But where does this scene take place? It doesn’t look like any of the spaces we see in other Mayfair scenes. It definitely looks like a totally different decor from the hotel rooms. Why would they hold such a top secret meeting in a public space? Stranger still, Diane is wearing the same outfit from her Yankton prison scenes. We know that scenes were sometimes liberally moved around in editing (as demonstrated by Diane’s rotating wardrobe in this Part). So I thought that perhaps this scene was actually scripted and shot to take place at a DIFFERENT hotel where they spent the night near Yankton. There’s nothing in the dialogue of the scene that goes against this as far as I can tell. Making things even more confusing, Albert is wearing his tie from his FIRST Yankton visit, before Diane got involved. ....and then, after all that, we have the scene where Diane gets the “Las Vegas?” text, again wearing the outfit from Yankton and the “Let’s rock” scene, sitting in the set that has been established as the Mayfair bar. Leaving me as profoundly baffled as ever about where and when this scene takes place. Man, I’d give my left arm to get my hands (er, hand) on the script for this thing.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat May 23, 2020 6:55 pm

This must be one of the most slice-of-life Parts. Most of the scenes have little or no relation to the broader ongoing plot of the series. Even the Blue Rose scenes, which are the closest to having narrative momentum, do very little to advance the story and seem much more interested in character moments and rejoicing in weird asides like the French Woman.

Cooper is on screen for a meager 23 seconds in this Part. I have a feeling this might be his shortest screentime of the entire series, but Part 14 only has the shot of him from the neck down and then that footage of the stills of the two Coopers intersecting. So while his physical form might be onscreen for a few more seconds in Part 14 (I’ll let you know when I get there), there’s a definite asterisk there, as it’s barely a performance.

Drink like your favorite character: Gordon, Albert and Tammy have glasses of Chateau le Bergey Bourdeaux from Gordon’s own wine cellar (there are two more bottles on the tray besides the one Albert pours from! They're planning a hell of a Blue Rose induction celebration, apparently). Diane drinks Gvori vodka on the rocks. Sarah buys Smirnoff vodka and Mr. & Mrs. T Original Bloody Mary Mix. I had to do a lot of squinting, but it sure looks to me like the wine Gordon has in his hotel room with the lovely Berenice Marlohe is Grand Vin de Chateau Latour ("It's a good one!"). I’m certain the Gordon ones are Lynch’s personal picks.

I think this is the only Chet Desmond reference in TR.

For some reason I love Albert's line, "Some cash. Not much." Maybe it's the way Ferrer says it, but it sounds like a line from a Humphrey Bogart noir film.

Sarah's line "Men Are Coming" really makes me think of the Thought Gang track "Woodcutters from Fiery Ships."

Zabriskie is always interesting and is maybe the MVP of TR for me after Kyle, despite her limited screen time. I love how cool she is in the scene at the house. The defiant way she says "Hawk" when she opens the door makes me smile. I get the sense that she feels so betrayed by the community and the world at this point that any offer of help or concern this late in the game just pisses her off. It's interesting to compare this scene to Episode 17, and to see how cynical and hardened she's gotten over the last quarter century.

I forgot to pose this question the day I rewatched Part 10 (I think?). When Ben asks Beverly to have dinner, what's the consensus on whether she was actually there? I like to imagine that he was speaking to an empty desk, Beverly having long gone home, and is voicing his desires in a moment of weakness because he knows nothing will come of it. I'd like to think Ben stayed true to whatever moral code he feels he needs to honor (I guess not sleeping with married women who have disabled husbands, for one). Their interactions in this one still seem relatively formal/professional (albeit with the intimacy of that childhood story). Although at this point in the show, who even knows what order individual characters' scenes are happening, as we jump back and forth from day to night with no regard for days passing/not passing, the Blue Rose crew's outfits change from scene to scene and then change back, Cooper playing catch, etc. etc. Time almost seems to be folding in on itself, or maybe stretching to the point of snapping? I'm not really sure which feels more accurate.

In the original series there was sort of an acrimony between Ben and the law enforcement crew (particularly in Episode 14, obviously, when they arrest him kicking and screaming). Ben seems to have developed a real affection for Harry now. He asks if Frank thinks Harry will like the key at least three times. It's very sweet.

I love to imagine Harry receiving that key and getting a little misty-eyed. Maybe whispering "Coop" with a little smile.

I think Ben is the character who waxes nostalgic about his childhood more than any other: the "hook rug" dance flashback in Episode 15, the old family movies in Episode 18 which seemed to set him on his strange journey to rehabilitation, and the strangely acontextual bike rumination here. It's almost like in his most stressful moments (being jailed for murder, the crumbling of his business empire and sanity, and here learning about his grandson's crimes), he disassociates or something and flashes back to childhood. It really seems that childhood was the last time he was truly happy (although he does seem to really enjoy being evil and manipulative in season 1 and early season 2). I really love that L/F committed to the "good Ben" arc from season 2 and really brought a sense of pathos to the character.

It's not a "long take," but just for fun I timed out how long it is between Albert entering Gordon's room and Albert actually getting to speak his first line. It's a painful, wonderful full four minutes. :lol:

Still tough to truly know how to make sense of the Audrey scenes (which is maybe part of why I like them so much; I also just think they're really funny). If (and this is a big if) the "real" Audrey is in a medical unit, perhaps unconscious, maybe her "contract" with Charlie was for him to create a tulpa that could wander the Earth and be real, but had to be his wife? Or perhaps that she could mentally/spiritually exist in some other realm that mimics our own (along with other lost souls and its own version of the town, Roadhouse, etc.). I realize neither of these is an original thought; there's not really much to be said about it that hasn't been theorized. I'm just voicing aloud where my personal head canon may or may not be at the moment.

I love that Charlie specifically knows, and notes, that there is a New Moon. The original series loved its moon closeups and played so fast and loose with the phase of the moon from one episode to the next.

I like that Audrey has embraced dream logic ("Sometimes dreams harken a truth!"). Maybe some Cooper philosophy that stuck with her all these years? It's such a weirdly artificial line (as are several lines in this scene), but it feels like something Dale very well might have said during the era of the original series.

I can't make out most of the books in Audrey and Charlie's place, but one is a T. S. Eliot collection, and another appears to be a very random 1960s children's book called Happy Times. Anyone have any information at all on this one? I can't even find a description.

Diane smokes Lynch's preferred cigarette brand, American Spirits. Note that they have a picture of a Native American on the pack.

God, there are SO many random farmers in this series. The Farm (which we eventually learn isn't actually a farm), the farmers who Chantal & Hutch kill (or maybe just drug) to use their place, the farmer whose truck Richard had for some reason. I'd completely forgotten Trick saying a farmer had to pull him out after he got run off the road. I wonder if there's anything to this? It seems SO specific that Trick says a farmer pulled him out, given all the other references.

The opposite of the Ella/Sky Ferreira beer can controversy: In this episode, Trick asks if the girls want another beer, and says Natalie "obviously" does: even though we just saw the waitress bring her a fresh Heineken and her bottle is clearly full!
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon May 25, 2020 9:39 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
God, there are SO many random farmers in this series. The Farm (which we eventually learn isn't actually a farm), the farmers who Chantal & Hutch kill (or maybe just drug) to use their place, the farmer whose truck Richard had for some reason. I'd completely forgotten Trick saying a farmer had to pull him out after he got run off the road. I wonder if there's anything to this? It seems SO specific that Trick says a farmer pulled him out, given all the other references.



Very interesting about the farmers! I always wondered if the farmer who pulled Trick out was the dude Andy interrogates in Part 7 who disappears; I also always wondered if it was Mr. C in his big truck who ran Trick off the road.

Also, Chantal and Hutch definitely killed those farmers, which was confirmed during the Part 9 Behind the Curtain segment. Tim Roth specifically asks Lynch if that's what the line means and Lynch confirms.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon May 25, 2020 9:41 am

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
God, there are SO many random farmers in this series. The Farm (which we eventually learn isn't actually a farm), the farmers who Chantal & Hutch kill (or maybe just drug) to use their place, the farmer whose truck Richard had for some reason. I'd completely forgotten Trick saying a farmer had to pull him out after he got run off the road. I wonder if there's anything to this? It seems SO specific that Trick says a farmer pulled him out, given all the other references.



Very interesting about the farmers! I always wondered if the farmer who pulled Trick out was the dude Andy interrogates in Part 7 who disappears; I also always wondered if it was Mr. C in his big truck who ran Trick off the road.


I thought it might have been Richard who ran Trick off the road, given his driving record, and his desperation to escape town!
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon May 25, 2020 10:34 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I thought it might have been Richard who ran Trick off the road, given his driving record, and his desperation to escape town!


Ahhh, right. That definitely makes sense to the point that now I'm wondering if I misremembered my original thought, haha!

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