Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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George
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby George » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:27 pm

This is probably the episode I'm the most torn about.
I love the overimposed face of Cooper, and the first time around, when it says "We live inside a dream", it gave me goosebumps. It's still a strong moment. I like the farce with Bad Cooper pretending to be Cooper and how everyone at the Sheriff Station acts towards him. I love when Sarah trashes the picture frame.
Overall on this rewatch I realized how much I could do without the Blue Rose Task Force exposition scenes. It would have been better to cut away after the "How the hell is this?" line. There's just not much of a mood there. But also, Tammy smiling at the "not where it counts" line...eh, it feels like a pervy old man fantasy to me. Someone once mentioned that Tammy seems like she comes from a X-Files porn parody, and that still seems apt to me, though sure, she has character. Still, rather would have seen Denise Bryton as part of the team...I feel like I'm getting side-tracked here!

It's just a damn shame that Harry Truman didn't leave the doctor's care at least for this episode! Oh, how much more emotional resonance his reunion with Cooper would have had! And while the sense of unreality at the Sheriff Station is great, it also means the scenes there with Cooper feel so unreal, which is a loss, since we didn't have much of an opportunity before of seeing him interact with the world, and after that, well things go topsy-turvy and who is what and how becomes very confused.
I guess the kiss with Diane makes sense, though I don't have any emotional investment in it. Naido being Diane...I'm not sure I like it, though I like how Diane looks there in the bathrobe, and the transition sequence.
Now, why does Dale want to rescue Laura so much, anyway? Instead of, say, Theresa Banks or Madeline Ferguson? Because she was there in his dreams? Because her death exposed so much he rather wouldn't have seen exposed? Because he's in love with her? I can't say I'm super convinced by the way Laura comes back into the picture.
Freddie punching the Bob orb...it's silly, but it looks and sounds unique, and I'm fine with it. I'm just glad the season didn't end there.
And I'm glad there's part 18, which I feel far less torn about. But that's for another thread. ;)

Edit: I forgot to mention: how the hell don't Freddie and James notice Chad unlocking and leaving his prison cell? Were I in their position, I would raise hell and make sure that someone hears me and locks up Chad again. This annoyed me the whole scene long!
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:59 am

This quote by DKL in Room to Dream is about Glinda/Sheryl in W@H, but it instantly made me think of Green Glove, deus ex machina, and the duality between Part 17 and Part 18: “Everything is possible and sometimes something just appears out of nowhere and makes everything right. That can happen in life. But if you count on that happening, you might be let down.”
George
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby George » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:30 am

Yeah, I like that about David Lynch's process, that he goes in with a firm plan that gives him assurance and orientation, but also remains open to spontaneous ideas that can in the most extreme of cases (like with the creation of Bob) re-orient everything.

I forgot another gripe about Part 17: The return of the Wig! I belong to the group of people for whom the wig in FWWM is a significant distraction. The first time I saw Part 17 I couldn't believe it when I saw Sheryl in that wig again, now just much older and so her look even less convincing! I was shocked by how poor the execution of that bit was. I still think the execution is poor, but...I don't know, with Twin Peaks my metrics for what is good and what bad is always challenged, and that is what I also love about it. And I did enjoy the scene a lot more now, but nevertheless I still think it's extremely ridiculous!
Also, couldn't they have used film for the additional footage to the flashback scenes? It's so easy to spot which shot is old and which one is new, it's a distraction.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:47 am

I’d love to know if there was a “Bob/Silva” or “Red Room” moment this season that completely shifted the rubric during shooting. My impression is that there wasn’t, although plenty of magical smaller things happened through production (and a few slightly bigger things, like Audrey/Charlie). But overall this season seems shockingly by-the-script, given that DKL’s last production was the seat-of-his-pants INLAND EMPIRE.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Poiuyt » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:14 am

Kyle has said on more than one occasion that Cooper was supposed to come back (I think from being Dougie, although I'm not 100% sure) earlier than he did. Whether this change from the script occurred during filming or editing is anyone's guess, although I'm leaning toward the latter, since so much of the filming already occurred strikingly out of sequence
baxter
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:27 pm

Finally reached Part 17 on my rewatch. Fucking hell it's brilliant. Unbelievably good. Loved it the first time, had my mind totally blown, and loved it even more the second time. A few things occurred to me that didn't strike me before:

1) I had forgotten that it is made totally obvious that Cooper is on some sort of mission. The obvious implication to me is that he wasn't just idle in the red room for 25 years, but very active in making new friends.

2) Diane was taken "somewhere" by Evil Cooper. This is perhaps how Dale and her hatched whatever plan they follow in Part 18, and it is made more obvious that I remembered that they are in cahoots in Part 17.

3) I'm still obsessed/utterly confused by the superimposed face. I even had a flashback to the first airing, when I saw it happen and scrolled back on the stream thinking "oh, I must have missed something there". What charming naivety!

4) Cooper's real confusion and action on seeing Naido when the face first appears reminded me of the final scene, and my only rationalisation is that Cooper is becoming confused by his travel in shifting realities, and we are watching his attempts to hold on, in the same way that we saw Jeffries struggling in FWWM. Or perhaps the confused face of Cooper that we see superimposed is actually the same as the final scene in Part 18, and he is somehow recalling his recent travels (so we're seeing a flash forward of him recalling this scene before he magically left it?).


5) I didn't get the Lucy mobile phones thing before, but I think I get it now. She understands cell phones because there are literally two versions of the same person with each phone. Before, she couldn't work out how one person could be in two places at the same time.


None of this is particularly original, but I feel like I have some kind of understanding of what happened that satisfies me. But what an hour of TV this was- probably my single favourite Lynch hour ever.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:56 am

baxter wrote:5) I didn't get the Lucy mobile phones thing before, but I think I get it now. She understands cell phones because there are literally two versions of the same person with each phone. Before, she couldn't work out how one person could be in two places at the same time.


I think the cell phone thing makes sense in an intuitive goofball free-association L/F way, but I’m not sure what you’re driving at here. When I’m on my cell phone, I’m only one person, standing in one place. I just have the ability to move around from moment to moment, which seemed to be Lucy’s issue.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:31 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I think the cell phone thing makes sense in an intuitive goofball free-association L/F way, but I’m not sure what you’re driving at here. When I’m on my cell phone, I’m only one person, standing in one place. I just have the ability to move around from moment to moment, which seemed to be Lucy’s issue.


I assume Baxter was refering to how there are two Coopers. One is already in Truman's office and then another one calls from a cell-phone, only to show up physically minutes later.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:44 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
baxter wrote:5) I didn't get the Lucy mobile phones thing before, but I think I get it now. She understands cell phones because there are literally two versions of the same person with each phone. Before, she couldn't work out how one person could be in two places at the same time.


I think the cell phone thing makes sense in an intuitive goofball free-association L/F way, but I’m not sure what you’re driving at here. When I’m on my cell phone, I’m only one person, standing in one place. I just have the ability to move around from moment to moment, which seemed to be Lucy’s issue.


I see that whole cell phone joke was a hat tip by Lynch and Frost to the fans who speculated on whether new technology would be integrated into the new Twin Peaks, or whether Twin Peaks would be shown as literally a place still stuck in 1990s technology. I thought it was a clever way to deal with the advancement of technology in the intervening 25 years.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:16 am

It also ties into the fact that our first introduction to Lucy in the Pilot was her describing in excessive detail the location of a telephone. The idea that telephones can now move around with reckless abandon and that she’s confused is an amusing extension of that personality trait.
baxter
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:20 pm

Lucy seemed to be confused that someone on the cell phone can be moving into the office when they should be out fishing (she doesn't get that they are portable). However, if there are in fact two versions of every person, then one can be on the phone whilst the other one is somewhere else. That's how I interpreted it. Having said that, I have no idea why Lucy shoots Cooper.

Saw Part 18 last night, and it wasn't anywhere near as depressing as first time round. It still struck me as the first episode of S4 though.

I'm about to start Out 1 by Jacques Rivette this morning, to fill the TP-shaped hole.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 am

baxter wrote:Lucy seemed to be confused that someone on the cell phone can be moving into the office when they should be out fishing (she doesn't get that they are portable). However, if there are in fact two versions of every person, then one can be on the phone whilst the other one is somewhere else. That's how I interpreted it. Having said that, I have no idea why Lucy shoots Cooper.

Saw Part 18 last night, and it wasn't anywhere near as depressing as first time round. It still struck me as the first episode of S4 though.

I'm about to start Out 1 by Jacques Rivette this morning, to fill the TP-shaped hole.


Out 1 is outstanding. That's the closest thing to The Return that exists, I believe.

I also agree about the cell phone observations regarding doubles. In fact, I agree with the previous observations by Reindeer and Wentz as well. I've also remarked that I think that her saying she understands cell phones now might actually be another level of joke, because she really doesn't understand them as she truly does believe they allow people to be in two places at once! Hence, Cooper on the phone and then also seeing Cooper in Truman's office. But that's just one of many interpretations.

I'm not sure why she thought to bring her gun to shoot Mr. C but its certainly tied to Andy's vision. He positions the chair there so Lucy can shoot him. And I think its implied that she is experiencing some kind of shared vision with Andy just before that as Mr. C arrives. And Andy reminds/tells her "very important" regarding the upcoming phone call.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Hester Prynne » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:48 am

When Andy yells "very important," I thought maybe it was his and Lucy's code that something serious was about to go down and might have even been instructional for her to get the gun since in his vision, he's actually positioning Lucy in the hall. When she realizes the man in Frank's office isn't Agent Cooper because of the phone call, my guess is she jumped into action because he was a clear and present threat, no one else was around, and it would have taken too long to explain - and Lucy loves to explain stuff. She doesn't fire until Mr C. reaches for his gun.
baxter
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:37 pm

That's a great explanation. Everything in the run up to that scene seems super important and fixed by fate to me, but it was a confusing rush to follow.

I swung from being very frustrated with Out 1 to loving it within the space of the first episode!

Spoiler:
The half hour improvisation with random moaning seemed far too trying, but made perfect sense once they started deconstructing it, and that would have lost any impact if the viewer wasn't thrown into the deep end and left to drown for 30 minutes.
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Re: Part 17 - The past dictates the future (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:28 pm

baxter wrote:Lucy seemed to be confused that someone on the cell phone can be moving into the office when they should be out fishing (she doesn't get that they are portable). However, if there are in fact two versions of every person, then one can be on the phone whilst the other one is somewhere else. That's how I interpreted it. Having said that, I have no idea why Lucy shoots Cooper.

Saw Part 18 last night, and it wasn't anywhere near as depressing as first time round. It still struck me as the first episode of S4 though.

I'm about to start Out 1 by Jacques Rivette this morning, to fill the TP-shaped hole.

Holy crap, I am so glad that you mentioned this! Never heard of this movie, so I just went and read a little about it, and it sounds incredible. Really looking forward to watching it.
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