Differing Views on The Return

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To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
7
30%
More disappointed.
5
22%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
1
4%
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
1
4%
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
2
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
4%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
2
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
4%
I now love The Return completely.
1
4%
Other - explain in comments.
2
9%
 
Total votes: 23
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

Jonah wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:47 pmI was intrigued by her scenes especially the one of Hawk coming to visit her which I loved and felt more like the show I wanted. But I would've preferred had they kept it to her being psychic ("spooky" as Maddie and Laura put it) and having visions of the Lodge, perhaps the Woodsmen, finding Laura's old painting and maybe having visions or inadverdently creating a way for entities to leave the Lodge and come back into the real world.
Oh wow, it's funny because that's exactly what I headcanon as having occured. A lot of stuff with Sarah in S3 I like because of how off-camera it is; something about it really unnerves me because of that. The glimpse Gordon sees of the woodsmen is the painting hallway, there's the feeling that something is wrong in the Palmer house, for some reason I got the impression something was growing or decaying, and Sarah visually is hollowed out, infected, kind of like a human urban decay. We never even really see most of the house. The fact her face appears briefly on the Jumping Man, the fact the Jumping Man as a character is just sneaking past Cooper, doing god know's what, and is largely off-camera--it's as unnerving as BOB to me.
Jonah wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:47 pm With regards to Josie, I never understood why people disliked that. Was it mainly the poor special effects or that the concept seemed to silly or both? To me, it's a fascinating and brilliant sequence. Sure, it's a bit silly, but it makes perfect sense imo and completely connects to all the other themes of spirits getting trapped in wood - the Ghostwood project itself, Brigg's comments on wood and spirits, the trees surrounding the town, the Log Lady and her husband, the log itself. It made complete narrative sense to me even if it was a bit out there and I think it marked an uptick in the original show returning to quality after the end of a bad stretch. I also think it's interesting and worth noting that, even though Lynch unfortunately did not direct that sequence, he did request it - so he effectively wrote it. I just wish they'd managed to work in the shot of Josie's head sticking through the curtains in Episode 29 to tie it in more and I think Coop stumbling upon her like that in the red room would have been very eerie.
I've seen it frequently listed as a "big lipped alligator moment," both by those who understand its relevance in the same way your comment connects it to everything, and by those who don't. I actually don't mind the SFX, for me it really boils down to the directing, I feel like it's just staged weird and that Lynch maybe would have handled it better, similar to how BOB screaming over Josie's body just feels off. The one bit of Black Lodge-related stuff Lynch didn't direct that I really love is Bob's shaking hand in the woods at the end of 27.
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Jonah
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Jonah »

It's cool to think maybe the Sarah/painting stuff all happened in the background before The Return began. We just didn't see it.

I love the end of Episode 27 too. In the episode discussions on that particular one, there's a lot of talk about how that sequence came to be and how much they knew about 29 (as at that point it had been scripted to be something very different with the Red Room only playing a tiny part, not the whole thing like it became) or even if Lynch went back and added it. I don't think he directed it - but you never know, maybe he did. Or he requested they just go back and add red curtains and jazz music. I agree Lynch would have handled the filming of the Josie scene better - but I still love it, always have. It's a stand-out moment for me. It also gets some interesting discussion in the episode discussion threads. I believe LostintheMovies had great points about both episodes (23 and 27 respectively).
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

Jonah wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:19 pm I love the end of Episode 27 too. In the episode discussions on that particular one, there's a lot of talk about how that sequence came to be and how much they knew about 29 (as at that point it had been scripted to be something very different with the Red Room only playing a tiny part, not the whole thing like it became) or even if Lynch went back and added it. I don't think he directed it - but you never know, maybe he did. Or he requested they just go back and add red curtains and jazz music. I agree Lynch would have handled the filming of the Josie scene better - but I still love it, always have. It's a stand-out moment for me. It also gets some interesting discussion in the episode discussion threads. I believe LostintheMovies had great points about both episodes (23 and 27 respectively).
Thanks for the heads up.

I never knew it was speculated he added it--come to think of it, it does remind me of the shot in FWWM where Laura has the ring on and her hand is shining white, which wasn't in the script but was added during filming.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
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mtwentz
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

AXX°N N. wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:36 pm
Jasper wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:38 am It’s a difficult scene for me, because, assuming that it actually occurs and isn’t some fever dream of Sarah’s, it takes her all the way into literal physical supernatural monster-channelling territory, as opposed to her being one of the gifted and the damned, (as MIKE memorably put it), and able to see and channel otherworldly things, non-physically. For example, she can see BOB, and she channels Earle from the lodge, but BOB doesn’t come leaping out of her, and she doesn’t remove her face to reveal Earle to Major Briggs, (though her voice does impossibly change). It also seems to suggest some cooperation with (or surrender to) Judy on the part of Sarah, and I didn't really want to see or accept Sarah possessing (or being possessed by) that level of evil.

I just watched the scene, and it's great on its own as a horror piece, but its overt, and very concrete supernatural nature troubled me in the greater context of Twin Peaks. It was/is something of a tough narrative pill to swallow. It's probably not a choice that I would have made, though at the same time I'm not 100% opposed to it. I don't have this issue with any of the other Sarah scenes in S3.
This is pretty much word-for-word my feelings on the scene. If I was tasked with excising exactly one scene, it would be this one. I don't think it actually lessens or reduces how terrifying, for instance, the later scene is where Sarah storms in from off-camera after an uncomfortably long time and stabs the picture. That scene is probably one of my favorites. But thinking about it outside the viewing, it's hard to reconcile both those scenes, and conceptually it really ought to have lessened it. On one hand I think it was a mistake to show Sarah as literally capable of supernatural violence. And yet, it sits so uncomfortably that I can't exactly say it doesn't serve a purpose--it's so bizarre it's hard to take literally, anyway, and perhaps it does fit because it destabilizes my ability to see the show as a streamlined reality.

Basically, I feel as conflicted about it as I do the Josie drawer-pull--I hate and like it.
I did not know what to make of this scene on first viewing, but now it is my most rewatched 'scene that takes place outside ethereal places such as the Mauve Room', except for 'Red/Richard--->Car Accident' and 'Sherrif's station in Ep. 17'

It is The Return at its darkest and bleakest, even darker, bleaker and more hopeless than Steven and Gersten scene in the woods.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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mtwentz
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

Jonah wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:19 pm It's cool to think maybe the Sarah/painting stuff all happened in the background before The Return began. We just didn't see it.

I love the end of Episode 27 too. In the episode discussions on that particular one, there's a lot of talk about how that sequence came to be and how much they knew about 29 (as at that point it had been scripted to be something very different with the Red Room only playing a tiny part, not the whole thing like it became) or even if Lynch went back and added it. I don't think he directed it - but you never know, maybe he did. Or he requested they just go back and add red curtains and jazz music. I agree Lynch would have handled the filming of the Josie scene better - but I still love it, always have. It's a stand-out moment for me. It also gets some interesting discussion in the episode discussion threads. I believe LostintheMovies had great points about both episodes (23 and 27 respectively).
Chen screwed up the acting, badly, on her death scene. That was problem one.

Glatter didn't know how to do the drawer knob scene in a stylistic sense. That was problem no. 2.

That was the scene that basically killed any hope for a S3. It was a miracle the show wasn't cancelled after that. Actually, no, it was fans like me (and many others) that wrote letters that barely got us to finish season 2.

But we can't blame Glatter or Chen. If Lynch wanted that end for Josie, he should have directed it.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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Brad D
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Brad D »

Lynch loves to say he had nothing to do with s2, but all parties say this was his idea. I really wish he had directed it. Who knows of Josie would have even ended up in the doorknob. I’m guessing Glatter and the sfx person (who I could never find) did the best with what they were told to do. A true WTF scene that was nearly the final scene of TP.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by eyeboogers »

Maybe many audience members didn't spot the connection between the log lady carrying her husband around in wooden form and Josie ending up in the doorknob. There should have probably been a couple of callbacks to that earlier in the episode to make it seem more mythology building and less random weirdness.
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boske
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

mtwentz wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:32 am
Brad D wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:33 pm Just now I sort of wondered, how did Sarah get away with literally killing a dude in a bar?
How does a coin magically suspend in mid air? Why does an insurance company executive seem happy to pay out a multimillion dollar claim?

Love it or hate it, the entirety if TPTR is probably taking place in Cooper’s mind. He is re-integrating, or attempting to re-integrate, his fractured psyche.
Some time ago I had stumbled upon Pete Namlook's "Psychonavigation" series, whose fifth instalment has the "Cryosleep Part 1 - Preparation" track that had an uncanny resemblance to Dark Space Low (and also predates it, being from 2002), here is the post I made back then, so I do agree with mtwents here. Yes, it may be circumstantial evidence, but I find it compelling nonetheless.

The Roadhouse acts I now simply consider as Audrey's dreams, strictly based on how they ended. And once you look at those scenes from that angle, I think quite a few illogical things become logical.

So there is something about Cooper and his dreamworld, and then something about Audrey and her dreamworld. And the town itself that is a reflection of the time the show was made in. You cannot compare late 1980s with late 2010s. Just like wine from the same region and climate will have a different taste and flavour, where one year's crop can be preferred to another, becoming more expensive and prestigious.

It has been almost five years now, so what about it all? I think it is still (profoundly) disappointing, but it has a solid kernel, buried very deep within. There is quite a lot of chaff, but some wheat nonetheless that still makes it worth it, if you stumble upon it. To me "It all cannot be said aloud now" and "You'd better hurry, my mother is coming" always send chills down my spine. Overall though, it somehow just fell apart, dissipated into thin air; it never reached its potential, and was despite everything good I could find about it, a wasted opportunity. A dud.
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kitty666cats
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by kitty666cats »

I re-visited the Secret History audiobook recently, and good lord - still adore TSHOTP so much and think it is 1,000% more in the direction I was really hoping for RE: The Return. It really is such a great companion piece to The Return, but also really makes me wish Mark Frost was far more involved in the production.

Final Dossier? Not so much. But TSHOTP makes me so nostalgic for the excitement leading up to The Return's release. Still profoundly disappointed, but still love The Return when I can separate it just the right amount from the original/FWWM & try to interpret it differently
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by eyeboogers »

I certainly wish as much care, time, design and budget had gone into "The Final Dossier" as "The Secret History". There are many things there to enjoy, but it does feel rushed and can easily be read in just one sitting. TSHOTP perfectly set up the new season and functions as one of the very best episodes/installments of The Return.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by AXX°N N. »

I don't mind TFD when I approach it as a series of footnotes. And I think the relationship/effect TFD has to the rest of S3 is clever; TSHOTP was a preface to S3 that felt like it was toying around with uncertainty and an extreme version of an unreliable narrator. Then S3 airs and TFD reveals, in tandem with the time shenanigans of Part 17 onward, that TSHOTP was, all along, not of the same continuity as what we would be heading into once it aired, but taking place in the setting after time is disrupted, accounting for the myriad continuity errors. I found the way it revealed itself as I read, the realization that I had already experienced the time disruption before it was ever shown occuring, and the reiteration of the dread of the way S3 ended, to be really neat.

But yeah, mostly, as a thing to just read, it's not as much of a pleasure as TSHOTP was. Instead of a thematic sister piece, it feels more like a commentary track.
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mtwentz
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by mtwentz »

I have to admit, TFD had about zero impact on me.

About the only thing to come out of it were the fates of Leo and Annie and confirming Sarah as 'the girl', which I don't think was a good idea, because it interpreted Episode 8 for us.

I agree TSHOTP is much better.
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boske
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by boske »

TFD gives the feel like MF has scrambled to finish it in little time.

TSHOTP is quite good, and what I really appreciate it for is its page 261 (the entire chapter, but that page in particular), as it drops some major hints as to what may be going on in Part 18.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Just wanted to say how wonderful it is to see some praise for Frost's books, namely The Secret History. It's clear that a lot of work went into it, and I've always felt that it provides a wonderful companion and guide to the deeper layers of The Return, from the continuity "errors" to the westward journey of Lewis and Clark and a lot in between. And as kitty666cats pointed out, I remember the excitement that the book provided in expectation of The Return, each page a possibility of new discovery and alternate paths the series might choose to follow...or embed...or ignore. The next time I read it, I intend to listen to the audio book as I turn the pages, as that seems to be the ultimate way to get into The Secret History.
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Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by sylvia_north »

946EB232-C9A8-4129-BECF-F3BC8F8F4058.jpeg
946EB232-C9A8-4129-BECF-F3BC8F8F4058.jpeg (16.28 KiB) Viewed 227 times
Jasper wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:13 pm Hey, one thing we can probably all agree upon is that it was a missed opportunity to not name the original Profoundly Disappointed thread:


Invitation to Hate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just checking in as I needed a weed pipe in a pinch and got one in the shape of a white horse and thought of S3.

This img made me choke on my white horse smoke. Yes, it sucked out loud, overall.

The last joy I take in TP is reading the TPD contingent complain about S3. Someone said “nails on chalkboard” in the last couples pages and that’s just what being reminded of ugghhhh Ashley Judd’s uninteresting presence and on screen business and Gordon being a dirty old man is like. On the pacing mentioned, being pushed into absurd discomfort is a Lynch tactic that works best when strategically applied but I can imagine him wanting us to feel exactly what he felt while directing, oh, say any Lucy and Andy scene: probably tired, bored, uninterested and wondering what’s in the refrigerator .

I hope we never shut up about it until we’re dead.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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