To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Moderators: Jerry Horne, Brad D, Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross

To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
4
36%
More disappointed.
3
27%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
0
No votes
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
0
No votes
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
1
9%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
1
9%
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
0
No votes
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
2
18%
I now love The Return completely.
0
No votes
Other - explain in comments.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 11
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

re: creamed corn - page 366 of Beautiful Dark by Greg Olson - though I would keep in mind, Frost was probably on the spot giving the interview quotes, and maybe used hyperbole to give a specific example of Lynch's improv methods.
Attachments
page366.png
page366.png (158.2 KiB) Viewed 355 times
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:12 am
Interesting. Thanks. And also interesting that it almost seems like Lynch's attempt to give a more traditional ordering of scenes, by placing it first as a prologue with a mention of something that would be mentioned again in essentially the epilogue. It's a nice bit of structuring. Very traditional, not completely unlike MD, but more planned out.
That's a very interesting way to put that since it's also arguably the most baffling component of the series! Even in the traditional way you describe it, which I understand and agree with, we still don't know when exactly the scene takes place (which is not usually the case in such structuring events that very clearly build back to the initial structuring scene), and it drove viewers mad trying to spot Richard and Linda references throughout the show, if they even remembered that Richard and Linda were names that were brought up in the opening, which many/most casual viewers had forgotten about since the damn thing was 18 damn episodes! I like the psychological component that JackwithOneEye brings up as well - having to do with the crossover into the other world, the Diane sex scene, the integration of Cooper's selves into someone possibly called by the name of his hellspawn. It's a just a neat trick all around, which, as you imply, plays with a traditional structure in a maddeningly obscure way.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3596
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Re: cream corn. Both Lynch and Frost seem to remember things their own way (and Bob Engels remembers things radically differently depending on what day you ask him). Memory is such an interesting and tricky thing.

I think I’m repeating myself (although if I have said this before, it was during a lean period when this board was essentially a group chat between me, LateReg, and AXX°N N., so most people probably missed it): I assume that the Fireman’s deleted line “Beware the thirteenth sycamore” refers to the Evolution of the Arm, who looks pretty damn sycamore-like.
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Mr. Reindeer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:50 am Re: cream corn. Both Lynch and Frost seem to remember things their own way (and Bob Engels remembers things radically differently depending on what day you ask him). Memory is such an interesting and tricky thing.

I think I’m repeating myself (although if I have said this before, it was during a lean period when this board was essentially a group chat between me, LateReg, and AXX°N N., so most people probably missed it): I assume that the Fireman’s deleted line “Beware the thirteenth sycamore” refers to the Evolution of the Arm, who looks pretty damn sycamore-like.
I recall that and was wondering...if he's saying beware the thirteenth sycamore in a line deleted from the first scene of the series (the black and white remember Richard and Linda, two birds one stone, right?), and Cooper gets banished into non-exist-ence, in Part 2, then what does that do with questions regarding where/when that opening scene actually belongs in the narrative? Does his warning Cooper of the thirteenth sycamore imply that it must take place before we see Cooper leave the lodge in Part 2 (before he meets that thirteenth sycamore?), or does it imply that the Fireman is reminding him about the thirteenth sycamore than had previously tricked him (therefore taking place well after Cooper was made nonexistent in Part 2), or does it imply that the conversation between Cooper and Fireman is taking place over and over again in the midst of a series of trials and errors where Cooper keeps forgetting certain things, such as that thirteenth sycamore?
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

as a magical realism fan, I always interpreted the Giant as intuition or instinct personified.

the scene in the roadhouse where he says "it is happening again", Donna cries, Bobby seems frightened, they
know something is wrong, though they cant put their finger on what exactly, but on some intuitive level, they know
something horrible is happening,
and I don't think he gives Andy any special knowledge per say, but encourages him to do what feels right, protect the woman in trouble etc.

I dont think "the owls are not what they seem" means owls are aliens or trans dimensional beings,
but they do 'seem' like scary predators that come out at night
that want to hurt you,
but maybe that's what they are on the surface, and/or our perception/perspective of them,
maybe owls are just natural beings doing what nature intended them to be to survive, and they don't mean to be scary, or have bad intent,
so don't judge by appearances, people have surfaces, hidden aspects and whatnot.

also, i'm not sure the owl cave ring is what it seems.

you could read it as an owl, but it could be read as a woman giving birth
the enlarged diamond with the legs spread out,
and Richard being the resulting garmonbozia hellspawn, a feral man who has been unleashed in the world
through rape/ violation/ grew inside a woman like a parasite.

in a way, Diane (now asserting herself as Linda) addressing him as Richard, is in a way, calling him out on his greatest sin,
reminding him of it.

and i guess that was a goal maybe with Leland and Laura too , but that didn't work out.

the frog mouth stuff with the girl is clearly an abstraction reinforcing rape/violation/parasite as the theme.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3596
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

LateReg wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:38 am
Mr. Reindeer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:50 am Re: cream corn. Both Lynch and Frost seem to remember things their own way (and Bob Engels remembers things radically differently depending on what day you ask him). Memory is such an interesting and tricky thing.

I think I’m repeating myself (although if I have said this before, it was during a lean period when this board was essentially a group chat between me, LateReg, and AXX°N N., so most people probably missed it): I assume that the Fireman’s deleted line “Beware the thirteenth sycamore” refers to the Evolution of the Arm, who looks pretty damn sycamore-like.
I recall that and was wondering...if he's saying beware the thirteenth sycamore in a line deleted from the first scene of the series (the black and white remember Richard and Linda, two birds one stone, right?), and Cooper gets banished into non-exist-ence, in Part 2, then what does that do with questions regarding where/when that opening scene actually belongs in the narrative? Does his warning Cooper of the thirteenth sycamore imply that it must take place before we see Cooper leave the lodge in Part 2 (before he meets that thirteenth sycamore?), or does it imply that the Fireman is reminding him about the thirteenth sycamore than had previously tricked him (therefore taking place well after Cooper was made nonexistent in Part 2), or does it imply that the conversation between Cooper and Fireman is taking place over and over again in the midst of a series of trials and errors where Cooper keeps forgetting certain things, such as that thirteenth sycamore?
Given my preferred theory of P18 (that Coop is caught in a record-scratch time loop), I lean heavily towards the latter interpretation. Fireman specifically telling him to “remember” Richard and Linda implies that the Fireman has reason to believe he’ll forget. Perhaps because he has forgotten in prior iterations.

I’d love to know where that scene was originally placed.
User avatar
Cappy
Great Northern Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:27 am

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Cappy »

If nothing else, Michael Cera as the (supposed) offspring of Andy and Lucy is inspired casting.

And as much as I love Robert Forster, I do think the Wally Brando scene is one instance where Michael Ontkean would have worked better. Forster is probably a better actor by most metrics, but he internalizes a lot in a way that sucks the oxygen out of some sequences in The Return. And maybe that was Lynch's intention, but I think Ontkean would have reacted more, thereby emphasizing the awkward comedy of the Wally scene. Same goes for the scene where Candy Clarke is just yelling at Frank Truman.

Also: some healthy bias for the original Sheriff Truman on my part.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3596
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Oh, I LOVE Forster’s deadpan reactions. Honestly, he provides some of the best comedy in TR, and makes some of the dumber comedy scenes way funnier. Solid gold.

And I’ll never get tired of making note of the fact that Forster worked with Brando and thought he was kind of a dick, which just makes it even funnier.
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

Lynch's own recollections of Brando in Room to Dream arent that flattering either.

he handed like a peeled sticker off an apple he was eating to Mary Sweeney at one point and said 'i have a gift for you' i seem to recall.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3596
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

JackwithOneEye wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:01 am Lynch's own recollections of Brando in Room to Dream arent that flattering either.

he handed like a peeled sticker off an apple he was eating to Mary Sweeney at one point and said 'i have a gift for you' i seem to recall.
I think he turned it into a ring, heh.

Lynch seemed fond of him, though. I think Brando turned down Bovine, but passionately wanted to shoot a project where he dressed in drag with Harry Dean and Lynch directed.
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

yeah, I think Lynch even pitched Brando on doing Bovine as a Vanya on 42nd Street/Dogville loose rehearsal format sorta thing to make it easier
on him, but he said the script was too pretentious or something.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3596
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Jonah wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:13 am
LateReg wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:57 pm
Jonah wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:21 am Lynch added like 200-300 pages to the script he had written with Frost. But even Frost made some odd choices (to me anyway) so I don't think it would ever have felt like the original series or a direct Season 3.
Pardon my faulty memory, but where are you getting these specific numbers from, or the knowledge of which specific choices are Frost's? Unless you're just talking about the few ideas that Frost has claimed in interviews of course, then I get that. But Lynch writing a whole additional 300 pages seems crazy to me.
I overestimated a bit - I just meant the difference between the copyrighted script and what it was later revealed to be, if accurate.

In terms of the choices, I meant the original storyline in general - Frost wanting to move the show out of what he called the "sleepy hamlet", the whole Dougie / "Being There" arc, the drugs in the town and the other core ideas that obviously weren't added by Lynch but seems to have been part of the early script, the basic premise and core ideas basically. Lynch might have added stuff like the roadhouse conversation sequences (I'm guessing) and other stuff but it seems fairly certain larger arcs and core plots were part of the original script.
BTW, in the Bushman book, Mark claims he wrote 1200 pages of new TP including TR as well as TSHoTP (which is 360 pages) and TFD (145 pages)...which would put his own estimate of TR’s script length at around 695 pages. Bushman also says he believes they turned in a 334 page script to Showtime, and Frost says he thinks it was more than that.

I wonder if a lot of this just comes down to different formatting / word processors / etc.
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by JackwithOneEye »

I believe there was also a shorter script that they showed to Gary and David, the two execs at showtime, in like 2013 or so, that I guess they had written on spec. before they got paid to write a complete draft.

I think Mark said in Bushman's book (or maybe I read it somewhere else), it was 2 hours worth of material. So maybe that means it got up to Cooper coming through the electric socket, I dunno. I dunno where the stopping point woulda been, but prob had a cliffhanger of some sort to get them intrigued.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Lodge Member
Posts: 3596
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Yeah Mark has said it was basically the first two aired hours (although stuff obviously got moved around in editing and changed during shooting). That def wouldn’t have been close to 300 pages though. They’re talking about the final shooting script.
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: To the Profoundly Disappointed: Are You Still Disappointed?

Post by LateReg »

Mr. Reindeer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:40 pm Yeah Mark has said it was basically the first two aired hours (although stuff obviously got moved around in editing and changed during shooting). That def wouldn’t have been close to 300 pages though. They’re talking about the final shooting script.
I want to know what the frick all these script lengths and changes are all about and I demand some coherent answers already! Despite being vehemently against the very notion of a 9-hour Return (as we've discussed in some other threads in the past few months, it strikes me as literally impossible for The Return to have ever existed in a 9-hour form, and certainly impossible to trim into 9-hours in its current incarnation) and feeling like I "get" the intended effect/idea of the full 18-hours, I would still love to see the "complete" skeleton version of the script to see what's there and what's not, and then maybe even, gasp!, piece it all together for fun.
Post Reply