For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

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Are you still disappointed with The Return or have your feelings changed since 2017?

Still profoundly disappointed - my feelings have not changed.
1
17%
More disappointed.
1
17%
No longer profoundly disappointed but still disappointed.
0
No votes
No longer disappointed at all but still have mixed feelings about The Return.
0
No votes
My feelings have softened but not sure what I think of it.
1
17%
I need to rewatch before I vote.
0
No votes
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be very disappointed.
0
No votes
I need to rewatch it before I vote here, but I think I'm still going to be somewhat but less disappointed.
0
No votes
I'm neutral.
0
No votes
I now like The Return, but still have some mixed feelings.
1
17%
I now love The Return completely - but can explain why I once disliked it.
0
No votes
I'm 50/50 on it (give or take) - like some of it, dislike some of it.
2
33%
Other - explain in comments.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 6
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Jonah
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For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Jonah »

A few years ago, another user created a thread called The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group. It's been dormant for a few years now but can be found here: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=15. This is a new thread created for those who were members of the Disappointed Group to see where you stand now - maybe your feelings have softened, maybe not - but here you will able to to air your opinions why or take a more critical view of the series that you perhaps feel uncomfortable sharing on the other threads perhaps because you may have found your opinions weren't agreed with.

This thread follows the basic rules of the forum (check here: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3340) with one additional rule -no posts predominantly praising The Return/please do not comment on this thread if you mostly like The Return and always did. That's not to say you have to dump on it or hate it completely and rip it apart. Perhaps you even like it somewhat but have a few gripes, or you dislike it thoroughly, or you just wish it had been something else - perhaps more like the original series. Even if you once hated it but now like it, you can post here - just be sure to share why your feelings changed and why you disliked it so much and don't try to debate those who still dislike it. Whatever the reason, feel free to share your opinions here. The last two threads (the Disappointed Support Group and one created after that) ended up turning into a discussion and a debate between people who liked and disliked the series. Let's try not to have that here, so the rules are - yes, you can praise The Return to some extent if you have mixed feelings on it (like some elements, dislike others) but if you're someone who mostly or predominantly likes the series, please do not post in this thread or respond to comments by those who have issues with it - just sit this one single thread out.

This thread is created as a kind of "safe space" (I dislike the term but it is what it is - and that was the intention of the original thread back in 2017) to air more critical views of the show, to discuss those views with like-minded people. It is not intended to be a hate fest or dumping ground for the series. This thread will be STRONGLY moderated to prevent debate-style discussion (for and against type posts) from occurring. That is not the purpose of this. This is just to be able to share some valid criticisms and not feel the need to debate or defend them. Perhaps down the road another Differing Views thread can be created to merge the topics, but for now this is the way we'll try it. For those who are 50/50 on it like me, feel free to post in the General Discussion thread, the episode threads, or even in both of these threads - but if doing so, just try to keep your posts appropriate to each thread. All we're trying to avoid is heated discussion between those who like and dislike the show - so if you're mixed on it, post what you dislike in the Disappointed thread and what you like in the Satisfied one or just stay clear and use the other threads. Please do not cross-post between the threads or refer/reply to comments in the other thread.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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sylvia_north
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by sylvia_north »

50/50 sounds about right to me and on this last watch since it aired, my fondness for the parts I liked has grown.

It will be too soon if I ever read another mini essay about how the meh parts of S3 have merit because they’re real/relatable/meta but at the same time surreal, just a mood but undeniably a puzzle again. I know from personal experience it’s really hard not to take dissent as an opportunity to leap to the defense of DKL or the work of fan theorizing.

One of the last chapters of this book is about the Genius Fallacy and how far out fan theories can get, in their zealous faith in the perfection of their master’s mind, and how way off and disturbing Kubrick thought these obsessed people were, each convinced they’d cracked a secret code.
https://www.amazon.com/Studies-Horror-F ... 161347069X

Lynch operates so much more on intuition and making allowances for mistakes than Kubrick does so that makes the compulsion to create absolute solutions for S3 even more of a tortured mission, especially the further fans move away from Vedic/quantum metaphysics.

There is a psychological phenomenon that happens when people are lost, and they stop trusting maps and instead trust their mental geographic map, convincing themselves the map is wrong, or throwing the map away as they get more lost... I liked the 4 hour video Twin Perfect did but so far it stands alone delivering a cogent interpretation, which doesn’t affect the pleasure I took or didn’t take in TP3, either way.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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Brad D
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Brad D »

I sometimes conflate my frustration with season three along with my frustration in discussing some of the challenging parts of season three. Quite a few folks believe there is some gigantic code to be unlocked, and that every little aside means something to the whole. I do wonder if they can grasp a serious possibility that Lynch and / or Frost really had no story to tell, more just going on instincts and having fun with a big budget and creative control (all while refusing to give into nostalgia, then upping the ante by erasing it). It’s almost a miracle they even let Dale out of the Lodge to begin with.

The Return feels more to me like Lynch fingerpainting than swinging for a Mona Lisa.
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Kilmoore »

Brad D wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:48 am The Return feels more to me like Lynch fingerpainting than swinging for a Mona Lisa.
It will take quite a lot to convince me this isn't the case. You see these praises around how, since it was written as a whole, S3 is this cohesive story. When asking well then what is the story, the responses are belitteling, snobby or downright angry.

The emperor is naked.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Audrey Horne »

Reporting for complaining and disappointed duty!!

*thanks for making this thread, Jonah! Hi, everyone.
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Henrys Hair »

I still have mixed feelings. Right before the first episode aired, I suddenly remembered the Stone Roses' comeback single and realised the new show could be pretty disappointing indeed. I mean, how do you follow up something that was so good and so unique over a quarter of a century later? My two biggest fears were a limp retread of the original, with a new murder victim and a younger cast, or something completely incoherent. The opening scene with the Giant seemed like *exactly* the right way to do it, with a small doubt over the shitty Cooper-disappearing effect. From there, though, it wasn't quite so sure-footed - although at least it didn't step on Stone-Roses-comeback-single territory.

I mostly enjoyed the series as it aired, with a nagging doubt that it might all fall apart at the end... which, to my mind, it kinda did. On rewatches, there's a lot to enjoy but also a lot to skip. Same with the original series, I suppose, although the hit-to-miss ratio there was a lot higher (in my eyes anyway) and the misses don't generally stick in my mind so much - if I think about the original, it isn't the Ben Horne Civil War story that immediately springs to mind, whereas if I think of the Return, my first thought is usually of scenes that last longer than I'd like or characters I don't really care about. Not entirely fair, as there's a lot I like but it feels like a wade to get to those parts.
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Jonah
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Jonah »

Yeah, it definitely feels like something you have to wade through to get to the good stuff.

I think my biggest gripe with it is its sheer length. At first, 18 episodes sounded wonderful - but I think this is really a 9-episode (to 12 max, but that's being generous) series here imo, just overstuff, overloaded, bogged down with scenes that go on too long (and not in a good way like the overlong, slow scenes in the original series which were sprinkled here and there lightly and used to good effect). I said this in a previous post but Lynch has previously cut material from Blue Velvet, FWWM, and even Inland Empire. Yet here it feels like he threw everything in either to inflate the running time to meet the quota after Showtime agreed to more - or purely for some artistic decision that I can't quite understand. I'm not saying this footage shouldn't exist - but at least half (or 1/3 to be generous again) feels like deleted scenes, bonus footage, that would work better on a bonus disc or as an extended cut, leaving the really good stuff to shine through more strongly. Now I know that will raise the debate - well, what do you cut? who decides what's the good stuff? Lynch and Frost. And Lynch had no problem cutting stuff from FWWM that didn't feel relevant to Laura's last 7 days (scenes with the other townspeople predominantly including the wonderful scene of Ed and Norma in the truck), even scenes that very much felt relevant (Laura and Dr. Hayworth and the discussion of angels). So I feel he could have cut a lot of this stuff this time around. The townspeople all felt like they were in a new Missing Pieces anyway, given how disconnected their stories felt to Cooper's. All that stuff in Vegas too, the hitmen, Jennifer Jason Leigh and Tim Roth.... Just so much that felt not only unnecessary but repetitive, stretching out 3 minute scenes to 15 minutes, showing us the same footage (Dr. Amp) over and over. Maybe it was to test our patience, maybe it was symbolising the looped footage Sarah was watching. I don't know. Then throw in making Sarah complicit and the big bad, unnecessary and laughable cosmic backstory that only half-worked. I just think there's a really great series here beneath all that stuff. It still wouldn't have been the series I wanted - and it wouldn't have felt anything like the original series - but I can put that aside. It's just wading through all this stuff makes it difficult. Though the footage might have been more fun had it been bonus footage. I said this before too - but it felt self-indulgent like a successful writer whose editors no longer dare edit them so their novels are now always 600-1000 pages even if the stories only warranted 250-400 pages.

I do also sometimes wonder if it would have worked better as another FWWM-style movie and Missing Pieces section. Make the main movie about Cooper's journey (as FWWM's was about Laura's), bring Laura into the beginning and end like the series does anyway (and which also parallels Coop appearing less in FWWM), then relegate all the townspeople to the Missing Pieces again. (Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't like them cut out, but I'm speaking in terms of length here). Heck, maybe even another Missing Pieces to throw in all the Vegas goods, MD-style stuff if you want.

Normally I seek out fancuts that restore deleted scenes that I felt shouldn't have been cut. This is the first time I've really taken the "less is more" approach to a work and wish there had been less - at least in the main cut. If it was Lynch's choice to just not cut much footage this time and he wanted an extended, extra-long series then fair enough I guess, that's his and Frost's call, and I do respect their artistic vision - or try to. It just was a big failing for me personally and I think it would have been a much stronger revival at half its length or so. Or even as a 2 1/2 hour movie with another 1 1/2 up to 3 hours bonus "Missing Pieces-style" footage.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by mtl »

I have a dream, I've seen the light
Don't put it out- she's alright

The Blue Roses
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Henrys Hair
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by Henrys Hair »

mtl wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:13 pm I have a dream, I've seen the light
Don't put it out- she's alright

The Blue Roses
Lol!

In some ways, The Second Coming isn't a million miles from FWWM - not universally loved at the time although critical consensus has come around to both over time.

All For One on the other hand...
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sylvia_north
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by sylvia_north »

Jonah wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:03 pm here it feels like he threw everything in either to inflate the running time to meet the quota after Showtime agreed to more - or purely for some artistic decision that I can't quite understand. I'm not saying this footage shouldn't exist - but at least half (or 1/3 to be generous again) feels like deleted scenes, bonus footage, that would work better on a bonus disc or as an extended cut, leaving the really good stuff to shine through more strongly. Now I know that will raise the debate - well, what do you cut? who decides what's the good stuff? Lynch and Frost.
Dwayne Dunham and Mary Sweeney are in the ol’ Rolodex...
One day Q2’s fan edit Between two Worlds will come up online again. I snoozed in my disappointment and missed it:
Part One: Cooper is trapped in the Lodge, OAM helps him navigate the traps set for him by Mr C. (1-3)
Part Two: Dougie Jones (4-7)
Part Three: Mr C looks for coordinates and seeks Judy (4-7)
Part Four: Cooper’s recovery and return to TP to meet MR C (13-16)
Part Five: Showdown at station, Cooper finds Laura (1, 8, 17, 18)

Did you know the Fireman had red room scenes that were cut? https://www.buzzfeed.com/crystalro/xx-b ... knew-about Speaking of the gold BB that has to do with the tulpas and the blue screen faces. These both come off gimmicky for no reason to me and I think something cooler could have been done with practical effects. Ugh. The orbs, smdh.

Can’t sleep, thinking about the worst parts of S3.


The Roadhouse conversations are like Stephen’s cracked out suicide monologue. Don’t care about James’ girlfriend. Waiting for Emily to pull up her shirt again and say “pretty titties bring em in like Flynn.” The bland pop music detracts from the ambience of the episode. Could have done with just Chromatics twice.

Lucy remembering she had gas and asking Hawk if his people treated gas with chocolate, Lucy and cell phones, online shopping.

The “piece of pie with my name on it” dingleberry at the RR

Doris ruins Forster’s scenes. Freddie ruins James’ scenes. Dr Amp on repeat. I wanted to be interested in what Red was doing and I wonder if any of Bathazar’s stuff was cut.

The arm wrestling scene, and honestly I think Ray is a crap character.

Fake Philip Jeffries’ voice. On top of the CG red room/sky vortex, Jeffries and then Ray, then Cooper, have the owl cave ring but none of it is consequential, doing a dishonor to the 25 year mystery. Cooper just puts in under the pillow, right? Yet we get Audrey doing her dance and James singing Just You and I, as a consolation prize. Pffft.

The woodsmen Gordon and Diane see, that do voodoo ritual on Mr C/BOB— because they’re goofy as all get out

Naido doing a Yoko Ono impression and the drooling guy in jail that bugs Chad.

Was this all really the best DL/F could do for us?
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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boske
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by boske »

1-1-9 was all that she said,
Loan sharks fear Janey-E,
No more coffee, drink some tea,
Dougie talk to me.

Some random gal has an armpit rash,
You still wonder who Billy is,
Little girl pukes in a car,
It's the greatest thing on TV.

Diane's got yet another wig,
And Gordon checked Tammy again,
Why should I watch paint getting dry,
I'll just turn it off and go to sleep.
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boske
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by boske »

I think there is an underground current flowing through the Return, so quite a few things are connected, although there is some fluff as well (well, that's an understatement). I think though it has a solid core that is buried deep within.

Let's try to connect things in a different way for a try, and look at some motifs and patterns.

Take the name Lincoln for example, it shows up in multiple places and contexts: a charred Lincoln look-alike in Part 8 that descends from the sky in the desert. Then we have Lincoln the car (also dark) that Mr. C drives and overturns and vomits in (we should also remember here the little girl that does the same, but I am not sure if its the same make of the car). That happens in South Dakota. Buckhorn is a fictional place, yet South Dakota has a Lincoln County and Mr. C was not near Buckhorn anyway, so he may have been in that county, however this is a conjecture anyway and need not matter. Finally, we have Lincoln on the U.S. coin. What does the coin do, it also spins in the air, just like the car did. While Red may have used a nickel and not a penny (ditto for the coin Hawk found), it gives an idea on how to connect things in a different way.

Another example would be that of the TV set. Sam is taking a part in an experiment, and S3 on its own could be considered an experiment. Sam was, it turns out, waiting for Cooper to show up, and yet he missed him while he was talking to Tracy, where Cooper showed up just for an instant and disappeared into non-existance, which is what pretty much happened later on in the show itself. And we also know how the whole thing with Sam and Trace ended up, where the experiment ate their brains out.
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JackwithOneEye
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by JackwithOneEye »

great examples Boske. personally, i love how "non existence" was worked into the dialogue, since so much of the Return seems to ruminate on sentience.
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sylvia_north
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by sylvia_north »

The repeating names, and classic film actor/character names, in S1 were neat misdirections. Word association is fun.
boske wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:47 am 1-1-9 was all that she said,
Loan sharks fear Janey-E,
No more coffee, drink some tea,
Dougie talk to me.

Some random gal has an armpit rash,
You still wonder who Billy is,
Little girl pukes in a car,
It's the greatest thing on TV.

Diane's got yet another wig,
And Gordon checked Tammy again,
Why should I watch paint getting dry,
I'll just turn it off and go to sleep.
Gambling Doug wears a rug
Hooker finds a key
Dandruff man insurance scam
Help I have to pee

Squeeze his hand off said The Arm
Who became a tree
Audrey Horne and now Diane
Raped by Mr C
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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boske
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Re: For Those Who Were (Mostly) Disappointed with The Return

Post by boske »

sylvia_north wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:47 pm The repeating names, and classic film actor/character names, in S1 were neat misdirections. Word association is fun.
boske wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:47 am 1-1-9 was all that she said,
Loan sharks fear Janey-E,
No more coffee, drink some tea,
Dougie talk to me.

Some random gal has an armpit rash,
You still wonder who Billy is,
Little girl pukes in a car,
It's the greatest thing on TV.

Diane's got yet another wig,
And Gordon checked Tammy again,
Why should I watch paint getting dry,
I'll just turn it off and go to sleep.
Gambling Doug wears a rug
Hooker finds a key
Dandruff man insurance scam
Help I have to pee

Squeeze his hand off said The Arm
Who became a tree
Audrey Horne and now Diane
Raped by Mr C
Candy tries to whack a fly,
Polish guy throws a fit,
Frank, say hi to Harry for us,
It doesn't get bluer than this.

Bob is an orb and fights a green glove,
Jerry Horne speaks with his shoe,
Laura was beamed up from the Lodge,
The cow jumped over the Moon.

James has always been cool,
Jeffries is a Tin Machine,
Who is the girl that lived down the lane,
Dougie! Talk to me.
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