World of Blue - Archived Forum 2007-2022

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I can’t remember if this has been said (aloud) before, but in the Jason S. behind the scenes film for Part 1, the Fireman scene “starts” (since they shot it in reverse) with Cooper shaking (presumably having just manifested), then looking around at the place, then the Fireman entering and sitting. The Fireman then says, “Beware the thirteenth sycamore.”

Could this be referring to the tree by the gold pond? Is it possible this isn’t a “good” entryway despite appearances? Not only does the doppel get trapped there (presumably by the Fireman’s hand), but good Cooper’s plans go awry when he tries to bring Laura there.

I was going to say that it may be the Evolution of the Arm's doppelganger. But, going off what we discussed recently, it would appear that Cooper meets with the Fireman sometime after the Arm's doppelganger banishes him to nonexistence, possibly directly before he arrives in the basement of the Great Northern (given the reappearance of the pin...I think). So it makes sense that it would be that seemingly golden sycamore.

LateReg wrote:

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I can’t remember if this has been said (aloud) before, but in the Jason S. behind the scenes film for Part 1, the Fireman scene “starts” (since they shot it in reverse) with Cooper shaking (presumably having just manifested), then looking around at the place, then the Fireman entering and sitting. The Fireman then says, “Beware the thirteenth sycamore.”

Could this be referring to the tree by the gold pond? Is it possible this isn’t a “good” entryway despite appearances? Not only does the doppel get trapped there (presumably by the Fireman’s hand), but good Cooper’s plans go awry when he tries to bring Laura there.

I was going to say that it may be the Evolution of the Arm's doppelganger. But, going off what we discussed recently, it would appear that Cooper meets with the Fireman sometime after the Arm's doppelganger banishes him to nonexistence, possibly directly before he arrives in the basement of the Great Northern (given the reappearance of the pin...I think). So it makes sense that it would be that seemingly golden sycamore.

The connection to EotA crossed my mind too. There’s not any reason it can’t refer to both the gold pond and EotA and/or his doppel, given the clear visual link.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:

LateReg wrote:

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I can’t remember if this has been said (aloud) before, but in the Jason S. behind the scenes film for Part 1, the Fireman scene “starts” (since they shot it in reverse) with Cooper shaking (presumably having just manifested), then looking around at the place, then the Fireman entering and sitting. The Fireman then says, “Beware the thirteenth sycamore.”

Could this be referring to the tree by the gold pond? Is it possible this isn’t a “good” entryway despite appearances? Not only does the doppel get trapped there (presumably by the Fireman’s hand), but good Cooper’s plans go awry when he tries to bring Laura there.

I was going to say that it may be the Evolution of the Arm's doppelganger. But, going off what we discussed recently, it would appear that Cooper meets with the Fireman sometime after the Arm's doppelganger banishes him to nonexistence, possibly directly before he arrives in the basement of the Great Northern (given the reappearance of the pin...I think). So it makes sense that it would be that seemingly golden sycamore.

The connection to EotA crossed my mind too. There’s not any reason it can’t refer to both the gold pond and EotA and/or his doppel, given the clear visual link.

BTW, it feels nicely apropos to me that this scene was shot on Leap Day (2/29/2016). That gels nicely with the sense of time displacement/confusion, as well as the idea of there being an extra of something (sycamores, days of the month).

What does Hawk see at Glastonbury Grove, and does it have anything to do with the knowing nod he gives Cooper in episode 17?

Do the curtains of the Red Room appear at the appointed times regardless of whether someone is going in or not? I can't remember. Without going in, is Hawk able to observe anything, or can we guess that by his being there, we're meant to assume he met someone coming out? And did he just forget it like they did when they saw the portal at Jackrabbit's Palace?

Pinky wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:45 pm What does Hawk see at Glastonbury Grove, and does it have anything to do with the knowing nod he gives Cooper in episode 17?

Do the curtains of the Red Room appear at the appointed times regardless of whether someone is going in or not? I can't remember. Without going in, is Hawk able to observe anything, or can we guess that by his being there, we're meant to assume he met someone coming out? And did he just forget it like they did when they saw the portal at Jackrabbit's Palace?

I am not in the camp that Hawk really saw anything except the curtains and even that he might have assumed was some kind of optical illusions.

But to me the purpose of that whole scene was to subvert our expectations. Everyone and their brother thought Hawk would rescue Cooper from the Lodge. So let's just bring Hawk within a few feet of the entrance, and then cut off the scene and never tell you what happens.

I love it!

BTW, began my first rewatch of The Return in a few years, in anticipation of (maybe) something new being announced.

Yeah, and one musn't forget that, if anything, Hawk not entering the lodge is probably best for his character. Log Lady was only telling him to watch, not advising him to enter the sycamore grove or take it any further than observation. She herself is someone who positions herself as an observer and there are even many lines about how cautious she is about fire. Taken all together, this points to the "Cooper is overambitious in the way of Icarus" reading. Sure, Windom was forcing his hand when he entered, but on his own volition Cooper plunges into the deep end when the time comes.

madeleineferguson wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:

madeleineferguson wrote:
The way Cooper disappears after the Fireman says "You are far away" is exactly how Laura's body disappears after history is altered. It makes me wonder if Cooper's sudden disappearance from the Fireman's Home is actually him being erased from that timeline.

I think a poster somewhere on the forum thought this meeting may have occurred after Laura is grabbed away from Cooper before we see him in the Red Room again in Ep. 18. Laura isn't really being erased from the timeline - she still exists, but her fate has changed, and maybe it's the same with Cooper. He's not being erased from the timeline, but his path in the timeline just changed. Maybe he disappears in the same manner because he never ended up meeting with the Fireman in this course of events - no Dougie, Mr. C, the purple room, etc. I had thought there might be two Coopers existing in the same timeline, but I think there's a good argument that this meeting did take place right before Ep. 18 and the Fireman is just replaying for Cooper what he already heard when Laura was grabbed away and wants to get a message to Cooper before he is "reset."

Ah. Thanks for that. Cooper was very close to Jack Rabbit's Palace in Part 17, he could have easily gone to see the Fireman after Laura slipped from his grasp.

Right after he loses Laura, just as the scene ends, doesn't he look up at something, like some light source that has just appeared? Taking him to the Fireman's? Or back to MIKE?

Pinky wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:50 am

madeleineferguson wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:
I think a poster somewhere on the forum thought this meeting may have occurred after Laura is grabbed away from Cooper before we see him in the Red Room again in Ep. 18. Laura isn't really being erased from the timeline - she still exists, but her fate has changed, and maybe it's the same with Cooper. He's not being erased from the timeline, but his path in the timeline just changed. Maybe he disappears in the same manner because he never ended up meeting with the Fireman in this course of events - no Dougie, Mr. C, the purple room, etc. I had thought there might be two Coopers existing in the same timeline, but I think there's a good argument that this meeting did take place right before Ep. 18 and the Fireman is just replaying for Cooper what he already heard when Laura was grabbed away and wants to get a message to Cooper before he is "reset."

Ah. Thanks for that. Cooper was very close to Jack Rabbit's Palace in Part 17, he could have easily gone to see the Fireman after Laura slipped from his grasp.

Right after he loses Laura, just as the scene ends, doesn't he look up at something, like some light source that has just appeared? Taking him to the Fireman's? Or back to MIKE?

Yes, although the other interpretation is that Cooper in fact never left the Lodge. He's been there the whole time and his 'exit' through the Lodge floor never happened. It was all a Lodge dream.

Really messes with your mind!

I can’t recall — has there been any discussion about the gold/yellow object Judy/Experiment seems to be holding when she first appears? It’s so blurry, but the object appears to move with her (as opposed to being a reflection in the glass or something banal), and then she works her hands and it disappears. Can anyone make out what it might be?

Mr. Reindeer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:58 am I can’t recall — has there been any discussion about the gold/yellow object Judy/Experiment seems to be holding when she first appears? It’s so blurry, but the object appears to move with her (as opposed to being a reflection in the glass or something banal), and then she works her hands and it disappears. Can anyone make out what it might be?

I dont believe that's ever been discussed, and right now I can envision it as you describe, but only vaguely. I'm curious what kind of trick of light it may be, or that it tricks us into believing it may be, since I don't recall it ever being discussed.

LateReg wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:25 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:58 am I can’t recall — has there been any discussion about the gold/yellow object Judy/Experiment seems to be holding when she first appears? It’s so blurry, but the object appears to move with her (as opposed to being a reflection in the glass or something banal), and then she works her hands and it disappears. Can anyone make out what it might be?

I dont believe that's ever been discussed, and right now I can envision it as you describe, but only vaguely. I'm curious what kind of trick of light it may be, or that it tricks us into believing it may be, since I don't recall it ever being discussed.

It's very hard to see. Can't tell if there is actually something in the Experiment's hands or if it is just holding hands like that.

But might was well speculate- the Laura orb?

I am a firm believer that there is more than one version of "The Return" circulating. Many things, mostly effects and color grading, seem to have been revised for the Blu Ray release, but according to my fallible memory there were also details added - and removed from scenes. In terms of what Mr.Reindeer suggests, I can't see any objects in the hands of The Mother in the Paramount+ stream of The Return. But I don't doubt that Reindeer has seen something (maybe on the Blu Ray?).

Here's what I get from the streaming version:
- When the mother first appears it seems that both hands are protecting(?) the stomach.
- When the mother lowers her arms (image#2) it does not seem like any objects drop/disappear
- Image #3 is just here because scary!
- In Image#4 we see that the mother's shape and face morphs similarly to when Mr.C visits The Dutchman's later in the series (jumping man sequence).

eyeboogers wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:13 am the Paramount+ stream of The Return.

Is The Return on Paramount+? I checked to see if all three seasons are on a single ViacomCBS platform and could only find S1+2 on P+ and only S3 on Showtime.

Good to know they're all available in one place.

On the subject of the object, this is the view from the blu ray



On a seperate note, does anyone else seem to remember earlier viewings completely differently during rewatches? I'm stunned at how sure I was that the Red Room sequences of Part 2 went completely differently despite this being the third time I'm watching the series in nine months.

I didn't recall, for example, that the scene with Laura and the scene with Mike were completely seperate.

Mike disappeares, then the scene changes to the one with Laura. It then transitions back to the earlier Mike scene via scratching sounds and a good bout of intensifying ominous whooshing. As if it's a flashback or something (the next line: "is it future or is it past", underscores this).

Another odd one is 'Laura' moving her hair from behind her ear to the front as she's walking up to Cooper (or rather the other way round). I initially thought she's just mimicking the original S1 scene but nope.

In the S1 scene, her hair is straight and behind the ear. In the S2 finale, it's less straight and flows towards her face. In S3 Part 2, she goes from one to the other mid-walk.

Thanks Histeria, lots of things to think about, Yesterday I had literally gone frame by frame in the beginning of Mother/The experiments appearance, and that orb for sure wasn't on the stream.

In Scandinavia all three seasons are on Paramount+, and when the platform launched here last year they showed commercials for it in cinemas, which featured lots of clips from TPTR, so clearly CBS still sees value in the IP.

That is extremely odd and I wonder if we can pinpoint other changes between different versions.