Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

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AXX°N N.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by AXX°N N. »

Agent Earle wrote:I mean... and to shift the focus away from Lynch for a bit: 4 or so years have passed since The Secret History book was released and we still haven't gotten anything from its writer about all the changes that were applied to the previously established canon. Nothing whatsoever about how and why they came about, despite some vague hints (or were they even that) he was dropping about it around the time of its release - ZILCH. As long as that remains the case, I'm calling them retcons on a good day and lazy work on a bad one.
Why does he need to say anything? Shouldn't it be open to interpretation, which is a privelege afforded to any other fiction?

And anyway he has said a few things--that errors can be attributed to Tammy, that it's realistic because humans do make errors regarding misremembering, that in terms of real life, data and "the official records" are often unreliable and that that was a deliberate theme. Frost has said before (regarding TP the show) that an often ignored subtext is miscommunication not just in a human sense, but in an information sense--the question of how much we can say we know Laura by her diary pages, or by character testimony, plus there's characters constantly fabricating documents, etc. Also, given that the timeline is screwed with towards the end of S3, and finds itself having effects within TFD in terms of events changing, I feel like that's enough room to extrapolate as to certain causes of what look like retcons.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mordeen »

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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Agent Earle »

AXX°N N. wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:I mean... and to shift the focus away from Lynch for a bit: 4 or so years have passed since The Secret History book was released and we still haven't gotten anything from its writer about all the changes that were applied to the previously established canon. Nothing whatsoever about how and why they came about, despite some vague hints (or were they even that) he was dropping about it around the time of its release - ZILCH. As long as that remains the case, I'm calling them retcons on a good day and lazy work on a bad one.
Why does he need to say anything? Shouldn't it be open to interpretation, which is a privelege afforded to any other fiction?

And anyway he has said a few things--that errors can be attributed to Tammy, that it's realistic because humans do make errors regarding misremembering, that in terms of real life, data and "the official records" are often unreliable and that that was a deliberate theme. Frost has said before (regarding TP the show) that an often ignored subtext is miscommunication not just in a human sense, but in an information sense--the question of how much we can say we know Laura by her diary pages, or by character testimony, plus there's characters constantly fabricating documents, etc. Also, given that the timeline is screwed with towards the end of S3, and finds itself having effects within TFD in terms of events changing, I feel like that's enough room to extrapolate as to certain causes of what look like retcons.
That's all very well and you're making some valid points. However, isn't it just as possible that Frost simply didn't feel like delving into the pre-existing material before embarking on the writing task for the new book to make the seamless transition and ensure nothing sticks out? That he simply said to himself as he sat down at the writing table, "Ah, what the hell, I'll just wing it as I go along, I bet I can get the gist of it!" ... I seem to remember him and Lynch saying all they watched in preparation for the new series were the pilot and the finale of the original series ... and maybe FWWM, I don't remember exactly.
Maybe I got it all wrong, but at the end of the day, even with possible explanations you put forth duly noted on my part, I'm just not as satisfied as I would have been had I known without a doubt that the creators did their best to deliver the product that would feel like an organic continuation of the old stuff. New themes, characters, moods, narrative techniques, sure, but, you know, still of that world. One and the same, so to speak.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Agent Earle wrote:Maybe I got it all wrong, but at the end of the day, even with possible explanations you put forth duly noted on my part, I'm just not as satisfied as I would have been had I known without a doubt that the creators did their best to deliver the product that would feel like an organic continuation of the old stuff. New themes, characters, moods, narrative techniques, sure, but, you know, still of that world. One and the same, so to speak.
Per Mordeen I think the topic has derailed, but I will say one thing for correction's sake:

IIRC, Lynch & Frost as a duo did watch the first and last ep only, but that on his own, Frost did review more of the old material than that, including even the old books. I believe he's said this in a print interview and in a person-to-person interview, but unfortunately I can't tell you which ones for sure. I believe the latter might be the "PBS Twin Cities" interview which you can find on YouTube. Maybe someone else with better memory can follow-up on this.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Twin Peaks had a lot of fans who appreciated the show for it being quite conventional but with a sprinkling of the unusual. Its more than obvious that both Frost and Lynch did not follow that general shape when it came to The Return. They made something more like an art project - Frost's books included. Bear in mind that Frost is the one who suggested the idea of Cooper turning up in a house in Las Vegas. Season 3 was never supposed to be faithful to what we saw before in both style or even by staying true to the narrative.

Any producer or writer involved in a continuation like The Return, if it were limited by a more conventional broadcaster than Showtime, would have said 'hey, where's Windom Earle in the scripts? Put him in there! We need to see Annie. Cooper has to be back to himself within 4 episodes and travelling to meet all his old friends in Twin Peaks.' I would have liked to see that show, even if it may have seemed a little silly or cliched. Honestly I do think both Lynch and Frost know that Twin Peaks needs a more 'solid gold' format and 'ending' even. I wish people here would not be so pessimistic.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by johndaker »

The night ep. 17 aired I said to myself, “Obviously it was originally supposed to be Margaret instead of Freddie, and the green glove was supposed to be the log, wielded like a baseball bat.” I can still feel in my bones that this must be the truth of it.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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NormoftheAndes wrote: Any producer or writer involved in a continuation like The Return, if it were limited by a more conventional broadcaster than Showtime, would have said 'hey, where's Windom Earle in the scripts? Put him in there! We need to see Annie. Cooper has to be back to himself within 4 episodes and travelling to meet all his old friends in Twin Peaks.' I would have liked to see that show, even if it may have seemed a little silly or cliched.
I have to say, in terms of premium cable, Showtime is about as “conventional” as it gets. I don’t think anyone before or since TR has ever considered Showtime an artistic haven. Maybe someone can name a Showtime series besides TR that they would consider “edgy” or artistically fulfilling, but I can’t off the top of my head, and I say that as someone who admired a number of Showtime series before they went adrift. Dexter, Homeland, Masters of Sex all started out with promising runs that were quickly converted into glorified soap operas. TR was very much an outlier for Showtime, where they were trying to do something more artistic that could gain them a more HBO-style audience. It doesn’t seem to have ended up working out, but TR was very much off-brand for them.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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NormoftheAndes wrote:Any producer or writer involved in a continuation like The Return, if it were limited by a more conventional broadcaster than Showtime, would have said 'hey, where's Windom Earle in the scripts? Put him in there! We need to see Annie. Cooper has to be back to himself within 4 episodes and travelling to meet all his old friends in Twin Peaks.' I would have liked to see that show, even if it may have seemed a little silly or cliched. Honestly I do think both Lynch and Frost know that Twin Peaks needs a more 'solid gold' format and 'ending' even. I wish people here would not be so pessimistic.
I am aware that I am not alone in this, but I just have to say it out loud: I am surprised to see so many negative sentiments towards The Return. As Brad D said earlier, I too love everything about the original series: I even like Dick Tremayne and would be very happy to see him in a potential season 4, while Windom Earle is one of my favorite characters, regardless of the silly transformations, etc. Yes, some things could and should have been better, especially considering Windom Earle, but all in all I consider Twin Peaks seasons 1 and 2 pure gold, and tend to recommend them to everyone I know in real life. (And it angers me when fans of the show suggest skipping parts of season 2.)

However, for me, The Return is in another league completely. It is no longer "just" television, it is art, and therefore so much more than I could have hoped for. It is my single favorite piece of visual media, no matter film or television. I have to admit this though: I have never been a television person, and always greatly preferred film and literature, especially "weirder" and less conventional achievements, so maybe that had something to do with my enthusiasm. I would love for a potential season 4 to be even more abstract and unpredictable. (I also have to say that I know people in real life who are not into art cinema, and still prefer season 3 to the original run, partially because it is newer, more modern, etc.)

P.S. The green glove thing is more silly than anything in the original run. However, that scene as a whole (everything in part 17 taking place in the sheriff's office) is phenomenal: colors, lightning, music, Cooper's superimposition, dialogue... And it is very much Twin Peaks to me.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Brad D wrote:One reason I hardly post anymore, or enjoy conversing about TP online is the staunch rejection of the slightest criticism of Lynch. It is all or nothing in this circle.
Really sorry you feel this way, Brad, and I also apologize if I’ve contributed to this feeling.

I’ll just say, I would get it if you were saying that the show is pretentious or unsatisfying. I believe Agent Earle feels much the same way about TR as you do and he is one of my favorite posters here to engage with. What surprised me is your feeling that L/F were oblivious to what fans wanted. While Lynch by his own admission makes films based off his gut feelings and not what he thinks people want to see, I think his body of work, including TR, indicates that he is well aware of audience expectations. All good entertainment is at its core a balance of fulfilling and subverting viewer expectations. Lynch leans more towards subverting for sure, but the fact that he does so indicates that he understands the expectation.

Just as one quick example in TR: He knows we want to see Cooper having coffee with the gang at the sheriff’s station. He puts off getting Cooper to the sheriff station until Part 17. Then, when he finally arrives, it’s the wrong Cooper, and he turns down coffee! Then the real Cooper is on his way and asks “Is the coffee on?” (Of course, it’s also the wrong Sheriff Truman, for reasons out of Lynch’s control, and he plays that up as well as part of the idea that you can’t truly “return.”)

Because of circumstances in the story, we never get to have our happy nostalgic moment, but Lynch clearly knows we WANT it, and is toying with that expectation. Now I can see why that may aggravate you, or why you might feel that it wasn’t well executed. But I don’t think L/F were oblivious to the fan service viewers wanted, and in fact played on it in various ways to be deliberately “unsatisfying.”
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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bob_wooler wrote:Interesting zoom meeting. Shared by Sabrina Sutherland.
"Another amazing night with all the Lynch gang!"
It's only missing Peter Deming!
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Brad D wrote:One reason I hardly post anymore, or enjoy conversing about TP online is the staunch rejection of the slightest criticism of Lynch. It is all or nothing in this circle.
Really sorry you feel this way, Brad, and I also apologize if I’ve contributed to this feeling.

I’ll just say, I would get it if you were saying that the show is pretentious or unsatisfying. I believe Agent Earle feels much the same way about TR as you do and he is one of my favorite posters here to engage with. What surprised me is your feeling that L/F were oblivious to what fans wanted. While Lynch by his own admission makes films based off his gut feelings and not what he thinks people want to see, I think his body of work, including TR, indicates that he is well aware of audience expectations. All good entertainment is at its core a balance of fulfilling and subverting viewer expectations. Lynch leans more towards subverting for sure, but the fact that he does so indicates that he understands the expectation.

Just as one quick example in TR: He knows we want to see Cooper having coffee with the gang at the sheriff’s station. He puts off getting Cooper to the sheriff station until Part 17. Then, when he finally arrives, it’s the wrong Cooper, and he turns down coffee! Then the real Cooper is on his way and asks “Is the coffee on?” (Of course, it’s also the wrong Sheriff Truman, for reasons out of Lynch’s control, and he plays that up as well as part of the idea that you can’t truly “return.”)

Because of circumstances in the story, we never get to have our happy nostalgic moment, but Lynch clearly knows we WANT it, and is toying with that expectation. Now I can see why that may aggravate you, or why you might feel that it wasn’t well executed. But I don’t think L/F were oblivious to the fan service viewers wanted, and in fact played on it in various ways to be deliberately “unsatisfying.”
The green glove stuff in the sheriff station is almost making fun of season 2 and fantasy genre in a way. the comic book feel of it, and all these characters interacting with phantasmagoria.

DL's aware of audience expectations for sure. the build up to having Cooper re-emerge was a deliberate thing. I know his parents didnt like The Grandmother and Eraserhead, and from quotes I've read, he always feels sorta bad his avant garde style isn't for everyone.

I think when you take into account his interests, the mystery man/ pullman/ getty split up of ego and id in LH, the different Derns in IE, and all the ruminations on conciousness, memory, experience in Mulholland, it just makes sense for Return to have Dougie/Mr C innocence/experience or most of the screen time. I'm not sure if having a heroic, virtuous intellectually aware Cooper and Mr C plotting against each other woulda been his cup of tea. Certainly woulda had a lot more plot and exposition, and probably more audience.

I get the disappointment though. Plenty of people I know watched the first two hours and gave me grief, how can you watch stuff like this, what kind of a show is this, etc.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I've always found it surprising that so many take issue with Freddy and BOrB, because something me and my viewing partner came to the conclusion of the night it aired, was that it felt so wrong but at the same time felt so right. Inexplicable in a "is this shit or gold?" way that lots of stuff from the original did. I find myself having no problem, strangely, envisioning that had S3 happened in the 90s, that's exactly where it would've ended up, and I'd still have felt the same "is this shit or gold?" feeling where I can't even land myself on one side. It's like hearing the jettisoned "planet of creamed corn" idea and feeling relief in a way that TP died (this used to be my feeling!), or Josie turning into a drawer-pull only the cinematography is great. For what it's worth, I find BOrB effectively terrifying and Freddy is just another way the typical hero's journey is snubbed.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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AXX°N N. wrote:I've always found it surprising that so many take issue with Freddy and BOrB, because something me and my viewing partner came to the conclusion of the night it aired, was that it felt so wrong but at the same time felt so right. Inexplicable in a "is this shit or gold?" way that lots of stuff from the original did.
Every time I watch that scene I can't help but think how BOB used to be something like an intangible demon, more of a metaphorical menace, a symbol, than a real, physical villain, and I love the ending of Arbitrary Law, with the threat I feel from BOB's unworldly presence. (I actually think that could have been a great ending to the show.) So when part 17 came about, I was shocked to see BOB turned into a comic book like villain, and I still can't decide whether it is "shit or gold"; I think it's incredibly silly and trashy, but at the same time it is one of my favorite scenes of The Return... I guess I will have a love / hate relationship with it forever.
JackwithOneEye wrote:I get the disappointment though. Plenty of people I know watched the first two hours and gave me grief, how can you watch stuff like this, what kind of a show is this, etc.
I don't want to be too negative, but I have been hearing similar complaints my whole life regarding art I enjoy, and it just frustrates me. I especially don't like it when people complain that something is "boring", like boredom isn't a valid human emotion, and like everything has to be "fun" or "entertaining". The only thing I hear about Marcel Proust, whom I greatly admire and consider my favorite author, is that he's "boring", which yes, he is, but that is not the point; great art isn't supposed to merely be "fun", and I don't understand why so many people tend to think it should be.

Sorry for this petit rant, and going even further off-topic, but I enjoy the discussion we're having here.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Another amazing night with the Lynch gang huh? This indicates they surely have been and possibly will be meeting on some regular basis. She is very aware of the rumors circulating, and is the queen of keeping things under wraps herself. She is throwing us a bone here. Thanks Sabrina!
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

Post by Mordeen »

Soolsma wrote:Another amazing night with the Lynch gang huh? This indicates they surely have been and possibly will be meeting on some regular basis. She is very aware of the rumors circulating, and is the queen of keeping things under wraps herself. She is throwing us a bone here. Thanks Sabrina!
Mordeen wrote:Sabrina is using a fake background because Arbogast is actually chained up and malnourished in a cage behind her.

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