Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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It just always felt like too harsh a punishment to me (for Coop), even moreso with the possible punishment he continued to face leading up to the ending. While powerful in its own way, I feel switching to Richard and having such a devastating ending didn't fully work for me after waiting so long to see Dougie "wake up" as Coop. I know it was meant to be a tragic ending and show how Coop kept failing, but it didn't feel fully earned to me. That and other reasons leave me less convinced than some people that Season 3 is THE ending. I preferred the ending to FWWM which, while far from happy, offered a sense of transcendence. I suppose you could read some of that into the ending of The Return too, maybe it's even a happy ending as unlikely as it seems, with Laura escaping the nightmare and waking up as a teenager who's not about to get murdered. Or maybe she and Coop are trapped in Judy's lair forever, or doomed to repeat cycles of this for eternity, or maybe the whole universe imploded. It's a cool ending and leaves lots of things to speculate on and lots of various readings to mull over, but it doesn't feel truly definitive to me. I realise I've wandered a bit away from Bad Coop, but was just touching on the ending you mentioned earlier and how you felt when Season 3 was announced. Like you, I don't need a Season 4, but I'm not sure I'm entirely satisfied with the ending to The Return. Maybe that's the point, I know, but personally I would like more, even if it only focused on Coop, Laura, and Audrey. I don't necessarily need to see any of the other characters (though I'd like to see all the ones who didn't appear in The Return and I think more could be done with Annie and especially Josie, maybe Catherine too, maybe something involving Annie, Audrey, and Josie, who all seem to be lost women now, marooned in different worlds).
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I get it. P18 feels like a very Lynchian ending to me, but I think people have trouble with it because this isn’t Eraserhead or Lost Highway—it’s Dale Cooper, a character we all have deep decades-long personal feelings toward. We don’t like being asked to reimagine the way we think about him. And I think that’s honestly a big part of what Lynch was going for, whether or not you feel like he was successful. He was interested in challenging those notions of long-form storytelling and the relationships we build with these characters.

This is the second thing I ever posted to these boards, and the first that was TP-related: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 845#p42845

I was grappling with these very issues—how can Lynch possibly deal with the ramifications of E29 in a truthful way while still honoring the character we know and love? I think the way he navigated it was pretty great, but I can certainly see why it would be frustrating to you.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I just quickly glanced through the post. I'll read it (and the others you linked) tomorrow when I can focus better as it's very very late here, but just a few quick thoughts - Bad Coop was always Cooper's doppleganger and I never saw them as connected at all, even in the dark mirror way, so I never felt he should have paid for his or Bob's crimes. Also, I don't think Good Coop was as naive or as reckless as he's portrayed, sure he tried to save Laura from the past, but it wasn't such a foolish errand that it deserved punishment. Unless he wasn't punished for trying to save her, just shown that Judy is a bigger force than he knows. But at the same time Judy howled in rage and seemed to think Coop had won, so maybe she didn't wrestle Laura away to Odessa, maybe Laura put herself there to infiltrate that world, maybe even knowing it would cause her to "wake up", maybe even as a teenager again and Judy was defeated in the explosion we saw at the end, only able to thrive in nightmares. In terms of Coop, I felt he had suffered enough being trapped in the lodge for 25 years. A bad ending for him didn't feel earned - not just that it was deeply unfair, but narratively it just didn't full connect for me, even as a downbeat endings go. Though, again, I think there's an argument to be made for it being a happy ending disguised as a downbeat one.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Jonah wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:46 pm I just quickly glanced through the post. I'll read it (and the others you linked) tomorrow when I can focus better as it's very very late here, but just a few quick thoughts - Bad Coop was always Cooper's doppleganger and I never saw them as connected at all, even in the dark mirror way, so I never felt he should have paid for his or Bob's crimes.
We’ll have to fundamentally disagree here. This comes back to the discussion we were having about Leland/Bob a few days ago. For me, if you’re going to do a story about incest and statutory rape, there are no half measures. Leland doesn’t get to blame Bob—if you take that approach (as the show admittedly did at times, but FWWM largely rectified this), it cheapens and demeans the whole thing and just makes it an exercise in exploitation and sensationalism. By extrapolation, then, if Bob then “inhabits” Cooper—or his doppel—there have to be consequences. It’s a little different from the Leland situation, granted, because it’s his doppel and not himself. But it’s not a clone or something. Hawk’s monologue sets up that the “dweller on the threshold” is a shadow-self of the person. The doppel represents all of our own worst tendencies, the ones we try to suppress (as demonstrated by Mr. C raping the two women Cooper is most attracted to). I just don’t find anything interesting in the standard genre “evil clone”/mistaken identity storyline. If you’re going to do a story about doubles, there should be real stakes and a personal reckoning. Otherwise it’s just cheap. And almost all of Lynch’s works since TP have dealt with duality, often through doubling. I think if the ending of E29 was ever going to be dealt with in a meaningful way, it inevitably HAD to be an exploration of Cooper’s dark side, and that’s what I was getting at in that post way before TR ever even aired.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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One last thing before I log off for the night - I just don't think The Return did explore Cooper's dark side. Bad Coop never felt like his shadow self, he was presented as an evil twin imo. All we got to see Cooper exploring was his Dougie side. Then at the very end he made a couple of decisions and we briefly saw him as a slightly hardened version, Richard. But I never felt Bad Coop was a true exploration of Cooper's dark side at all, it felt very much like the evil twin route to me, with the series more interested in exploring that and then Cooper's innocent side via Dougie, until whatever Richard is/was at the very end. Will be interested to hear your thoughts, but won't get back to this until tomorrow at the earliest.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I honestly shared that viewpoint for awhile and found Mr. C a trifle disappointing initially, so again, I get it. What I think can’t be ignored is what Mr. C does to Audrey and Diane, and the repercussions of the way that plays out across the series (although it’s subtext to a large extent, it really is a driving force for much of what occurs, up to and including the entirety of the Coop/Diane material in Part 18). In terms of the actual onscreen portrayal of the doppel, I see a lot of “our” Dale’s inquisitive/investigative nature, but inverted into darker motivations. I also think, if you go back and watch the Pilot in particular, Dale comes off as a little darker and more detached, more Holmesian if you will, in a way that we tend to forget. I think that’s an important link to Mr. C and “Richard” (Lynch has always said “the Pilot is the thing” for him). I think TR is also Lynch’s most complex deconstruction of identity to date. It’s not a simple good/evil breakdown. We have the “good Dale” and the doppel. But then the doppel splinters off to form “Dougie Jones” (arguably giving up the joyful/indulgent aspects of his persona). Then we get “blank slate” Cooper. Then the doppel is destroyed and maybe reintegrated into Original Dale, but he immediately gives up a part of himself to form the New Dougie to be with his family (again arguably giving up the joyful aspects of himself). The whole show is really a breakdown of Cooper, fracturing him into various aspects of himself.

Again, I’m not saying you have to like it, or feel that it was done well. But I do think it’s more complex than a Star Trek-style evil clone story.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I read your 2015 post. I think the Return handled it really well. Good Cooper maybe didnt rape Diane/ Audrey - but he did go into the lodge a bit unprepared and with imperfect courage, his fault to a degree, he let this inner id shadow self out into the world to ruin people's lives and such. ( If you go back further, he did have the affair with Windom's wife etc, which started Windom coming to town et all)

I see Bad Cooper as connected/ part of him. The whole 'are you a pervert or a detective thing' from BV, I see Cooper as an older Jeffrey. He has insatiable curiosity (just like us maniacs analyzing clues endlessly) which can get you in trouble if you're overturning stones that should be just best left alone. and it is an interesting question, a voyeur seeks self satisfaction by attaining knowledge, so there is an element of perversion in getting obsessed with anything you don't have the answer to.

Bad Cooper isnt content to just be bad, he's like dark Jeffrey with the ear, he is still trying to figure out things still, tracking down Jeffries at the Dutchman's, obsessed with piecing together these mysteries of existence even from a dark place, who is Judy, etc. plus - The want vs. need callback dialogue when Audrey tried to seduce him, comes back again in Return.

Good Cooper also , in my view, does err, there is naivety. I think he thinks the ring is intrinsically evil in FWWM when it's laid out on the table, he made a mistake telling Laura not to take the ring in FWWM, even when Maclachlan performs that scene, he seems confused and uncertain, but the ring seemed to protect her from her soul being snatched / possessed etc. it's an interesting dynamic there where the victim is more wise/certain than the detective.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:25 pm I read your 2015 post. I think the Return handled it really well. Good Cooper maybe didnt rape Diane/ Audrey - but he did go into the lodge a bit unprepared and with imperfect courage, his fault to a degree, he let this inner id shadow self out into the world to ruin people's lives and such. ( If you go back further, he did have the affair with Windom's wife etc, which started Windom coming to town et all)

I see Bad Cooper as connected/ part of him. The whole 'are you a pervert or a detective thing' from BV, I see Cooper as an older Jeffrey. He has insatiable curiosity (just like us maniacs analyzing clues endlessly) which can get you in trouble if you're overturning stones that should be just best left alone. and it is an interesting question, a voyeur seeks self satisfaction by attaining knowledge, so there is an element of perversion in getting obsessed with anything you don't have the answer to.

Bad Cooper isnt content to jut be bad, he's like dark Jeffrey with the ear, he is still trying to figure out things still, tracking down Jeffries at the Dutchman's, obsessed with piecing together these mysteries of existence even from a dark place, who is Judy, etc. plus - The want vs. need callback dialogue when Audrey tried to seduce him, comes back again in Return.

Good Cooper also , in my view, does err, there is naivety. I think he thinks the ring is intrinsically evil in FWWM when it's laid out on the table, he made a mistake telling Laura not to take the ring in FWWM, even when Maclachlan performs that scene, he seems confused and uncertain, but the ring seemed to protect her from her soul being snatched / possessed etc. it's an interesting dynamic there where the victim is more wise/certain than the detective.
Wonderfully stated. I agree with all of this. The “want vs. need” dialogue is so key, and clearly intentional (I’m betting that was a Frost touch).
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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I do like some of the evil doppelganger Star Trek episodes. having Shatner play two parts sometimes, like The Enemy WIthin, was a clever cost saver and it let him chew scenery.

DS9 and Enterprise mined that Mirror, Mirror ep for some follow ups I quite liked.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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JackwithOneEye wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:35 pm I do like some of the evil doppelganger Star Trek episodes. having Shatner play two parts sometimes, like The Enemy WIthin, was a clever cost saver and it let him chew scenery.

DS9 and Enterprise mined that Mirror, Mirror ep for some follow ups I quite liked.
I didn’t mean to shit on that stuff. It’s real fun from a pop culture standpoint, and I love it too as entertainment. But I expect more from a Lynch production. TP always had genre trappings, but at its best, it transcended being a “genre” show.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Mr. Reindeer wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:37 pm I get it. P18 feels like a very Lynchian ending to me, but I think people have trouble with it because this isn’t Eraserhead or Lost Highway—it’s Dale Cooper, a character we all have deep decades-long personal feelings toward. We don’t like being asked to reimagine the way we think about him. And I think that’s honestly a big part of what Lynch was going for, whether or not you feel like he was successful. He was interested in challenging those notions of long-form storytelling and the relationships we build with these characters.

This is the second thing I ever posted to these boards, and the first that was TP-related: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 845#p42845

I was grappling with these very issues—how can Lynch possibly deal with the ramifications of E29 in a truthful way while still honoring the character we know and love? I think the way he navigated it was pretty great, but I can certainly see why it would be frustrating to you.
Ummm...absolutely remarkable and prescient thoughts presented in that link. One might think you actually wrote The Return...right down to your exact articulation of the key "need and want" dynamic that is literally stated in the series.

In purely surface-level narrative terms, of course Mr. C and Dougie might seem disappointing, given the sense of stasis that accompanies their arcs. But, the entire Return is about Cooper's fragmented identity and embrace of his darkness/whole self, as you already said in a later post. Mr. C's desires (and he's all about desire, id) are clearly Cooper's, and however dissatisfying on a plot-level, there's a rich irony that mirrors Cooper's own journey as Mr. C's endless pursuit of coordinates end up leading directly to his doom. It's actually quite funny! For my money it's all a brilliantly layered deconstruction, with Mr. C and Dougie et al fragments of Cooper's psyche in desperate need of reintegration (I certainly don't see Mr. C as Cooper's evil twin) amidst the lost time (hence the duration of the arcs) and impossibility of fully returning to one's idealized self. That's the story we're seeing, reflecting theories that it may be taking place in the mind or some other subjective plane of existence. It's mostly subtext up until Jeffries spells it out in Part 15 when he says to Mr. C, "You ARE Cooper."
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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NormoftheAndes wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 7:55 am
Agent Earle wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 5:01 am I specifically recall Kimmy Robertson coming out and saying she doesn't know anything about any new David Lynch production a while ago - I think it was during the initial post-HHM's famous tweet flurry of on-line speculation and guessing (in late 2019, just before Covid turned the world upside down). That could have changed in the meantime, of course, but somehow I doubt it.
The thing is, can we really trust anything Kimmy says? No, we can't. Not at all! Not one bit.
That's not very nice. But I would assume you may not know how important she was to the Return even happening, so whatever.

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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Sabrina had posted a photo of her having coloured her hair purple. So I commented saying , it’s a Wisteria coloured hair and she had liked my comment. Doesn’t prove anything though as she had liked every comment in the photo. But I feel that she is trying to hype something up. She has been posting bts photos from season 3 almost every other day
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Mr. Reindeer wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:29 pm
Wonderfully stated. I agree with all of this. The “want vs. need” dialogue is so key, and clearly intentional (I’m betting that was a Frost touch).
Was thinking last night that that quote sums up how many of us feel about Season 4. We don't need it, but we want it!
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this?

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Mr. Reindeer wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:59 pm
Jonah wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:46 pm I just quickly glanced through the post. I'll read it (and the others you linked) tomorrow when I can focus better as it's very very late here, but just a few quick thoughts - Bad Coop was always Cooper's doppleganger and I never saw them as connected at all, even in the dark mirror way, so I never felt he should have paid for his or Bob's crimes.
We’ll have to fundamentally disagree here. This comes back to the discussion we were having about Leland/Bob a few days ago. For me, if you’re going to do a story about incest and statutory rape, there are no half measures. Leland doesn’t get to blame Bob—if you take that approach (as the show admittedly did at times, but FWWM largely rectified this), it cheapens and demeans the whole thing and just makes it an exercise in exploitation and sensationalism. By extrapolation, then, if Bob then “inhabits” Cooper—or his doppel—there have to be consequences. It’s a little different from the Leland situation, granted, because it’s his doppel and not himself. But it’s not a clone or something. Hawk’s monologue sets up that the “dweller on the threshold” is a shadow-self of the person. The doppel represents all of our own worst tendencies, the ones we try to suppress (as demonstrated by Mr. C raping the two women Cooper is most attracted to). I just don’t find anything interesting in the standard genre “evil clone”/mistaken identity storyline. If you’re going to do a story about doubles, there should be real stakes and a personal reckoning. Otherwise it’s just cheap. And almost all of Lynch’s works since TP have dealt with duality, often through doubling. I think if the ending of E29 was ever going to be dealt with in a meaningful way, it inevitably HAD to be an exploration of Cooper’s dark side, and that’s what I was getting at in that post way before TR ever even aired.
This is interesting. I particularly like the idea of Cooper fracturing himself. I have to say, though, I don't think the narrative ever dived that deeply into it, at least not in what we were shown. Perhaps those intentions are there for us to analysis and discuss, but for the most part I still feel the show took an evil twin / bad doppleganger approach, and was more interested in Dougie waking up. The shift to Richard felt rushed and not entirely planned or thought out, and I'm not sure even Frost was fully on board with it. But is Bad Coop a part of Good Coop? I mean, yes, I guess so. But I don't think he was meant to be a deep shadow of him, but maybe I'm reading it wrong. Leland's doppelganger claimed he never killed anyone but both versions we saw of him were fairly evil, or complicit, moreso than Cooper ever was. Coop was a flawed character but I don't think his flaws ever approached what Bad Coop did, or necessarily exposed that Good Coop had a desire, even at base level, to do those things. The series always presented them as fairly separate for the most part. Cooper's flaws are evident in that he had an affair with Earle's wife, was maybe too prone to being a boyscot and trying to save everyone, was certainly tempted by Audrey (but never gave in to those desires). and possibly made some other foolish errors of judgement and he was harsher as you said in the pilot. However, I still don't think Bad Coop equates all that much with Good Coop. I can enjoy the analysis that that may be the case, and I'm not so in love with the character that I'm opposed to it, I just don't feel the show was interested in going that deep, and essentially for all the praise of The Return, I think we sort of did get an evil twin type plotline in the end that wasn't much deeper for waiting 25 years than what we might have seen in 1991, only that he had more time in the outside to do despicable things, and the original series on a network probably would have shied away from him raping Audrey and fathering a child with her.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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