Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

General discussion on Twin Peaks not related to the series, film, books, music, photos, or collectors merchandise.

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by LateReg »

NormoftheAndes wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:10 am In terms of the jokey comment I added to about a Twin Peaks universe, I really only meant in terms of broadening the scope of the show from purely Lynch taking the helm as with The Return. Certainly, if you have so many hours of Lynch is it really going to be as intense in feel in terms of his input compared to a season with a number of episodes directed by him throughout it, like in the first two seasons? This quote of 'pure heroin Lynch' I just see as David Nevins trying to make a statement that sold The Return to the big Lynch fans - which I think it did. But was it really 'pure heroin' Lynch? I don't think so. In comparison, I would view FWWM as a project more fitting that description. Whilst The Return had its more stand-out 'Lynch' moments you could say they were spread out evenly and almost tamed a little.
Interesting points, but I think it's all a matter of how you look at it all, and at Nevins' statement. INLAND EMPIRE certainly fits the "pure heroin" comment, but I think The Return does just as much. It's raw, uncut, a return to the full-on, dread-inducing pacing of his earliest film and the complex, fragmented storytelling of his latest, and it has all sides of him, from the abstract to the warm, from the horrific to the hilarious, and was told in a way that offered little concessions to typical modes of storytelling, the fanbase, or revivals. I don't believe that pure heroin simply means non-stop intensity, but of course it's open to interpretation. As far as whether some of that intensity was diluted and would have manifested itself in stronger doses if Lynch only directed a handful of "special" episodes, maybe. But, I'm glad that The Return exists in its full-Lynch state as I find that it is pure and powerful regardless or perhaps precisely because of how those aspects manifest.

As far as the sandbox where the ideas of many contributors emerge, I'm happy with that approach for the original series, and it does enhance the feeling of the sandbox. But--and this goes without saying--that was then and this is now. While there's debates to be had about the pros and cons of the modern, more directorial and "cinematic" mode of TV-making and whether or not Lynch would have just directed the whole thing (up to a point) back then if such a thing was more common and how it might have turned out differently, with the singular vision of The Return being what it was, I don't think it would have been done any favors by having multiple contributors and made in the same way as in the 1990s. Perhaps for some that would have been delightfully old-fashioned, but I think you'd have to reconstruct the entire vision from the ground up, which would have resulted in a wholly different version of Season 3. But, I just couldn't see it working. At any rate, if there is any more Twin Peaks, as many have pointed out it will likely be all Lynch in the director's chair. Maybe we'll get something shorter where he can bring a different type of feeling to it (more overtly intense, less scattered) that will sit better with more fans. I just think The Return was very purposefully its own, unique thing, and if we see more I'm hoping it will differentiate itself once again.
User avatar
Stavrogyn
RR Diner Member
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:22 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Stavrogyn »

LateReg wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:41 am I just think The Return was very purposefully its own, unique thing, and if we see more I'm hoping it will differentiate itself once again.
This is exactly what I would like to see too, both stylistically and plot-wise; especially stylistically. I don't think it would make much sense to explore the themes of passage of time once again, and how it affected the town's population, at least not in the same manner. And, at least to me, most of the individual stories were finished (for example, even though I would love to see more of Benjamin Horne, I think his story ended, and it's good as it is).

It would be interesting to see the characters that were skipped in The Return, though.
All those years living the life of someone I didn't even know - Knight of Cups (2015)
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

I struggle to see where there was much of a story for Ben Horne in The Return - he seemed just to be reacting to other characters (his brother, his ex-wife, his daughter's mysterious past, the strange noise that may or may not be Josie). There was a lot of good set-up for a story - and the actor is so good, he makes anything he does interesting - but I think they could have done so much more with it. And the bit of a story he did get - finding himself attracted to his secretary, who herself had an unexplored story with her ill husband - wasn't very interesting. Maybe some of that worked in a "slice of life" way, not everything having to have more plot resonance, but for me that kind of "glimpse into the town without delving deeper" - while it does and can work for Twin Peaks - didn't really work for me hugely in that instance. That's not to say I disliked it either. I just wanted more.

So, in that respect, the characters don't feel done to me - they still feel unexplored. Off the top of my head, I could come up with at least 5, more like 10, little storylines for the Ben Horne character alone, some new, some going back to past issues (Ghostwood, Josie). I'd be fine leaving everyone but Coop/Laura/Audrey as is, but I can't truly say I feel their stories are done. They just don't have the big hanging cliffhangers attached to them that the other three do - but I'd be happy to see more and think there's lots more stories to tell in that town (heck, even those we didn't see have lots of unfinished stories - Annie, Josie, Catherine) if Lynch and Frost were only interested in doing so. And - this isn't a criticism, just an observation - I'm not convinced they are. From the beginning of The Return, Frost spoke about his desire to get away from the "sleepy hamlet" - bizarre to me as I think the town is more interesting than Vegas or a 100 other real world locations - and Lynch seems more interested in exploring other realms, such as the Odessaverse. Which is all perfectly fine - I'd be fine with those directions moving forward. I just don't think either have much interest in Twin Peaks stories per se anymore. Unless that's changed again. But much of The Return - in that one respect - felt like an epilogue to me, perhaps setting up a new story for somewhere else.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Histeria
Great Northern Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Histeria »

I thought Ben's story was a wonderfully infuriating slice-of-life story that was one of the stronger arcs in S3.

A man tormented by guilt, the grievances of a childhood deficit in paternal support, and the materialist replacements that he's surrounded himself with since adolescence.

Throughout the original series, Ben's nostalgia for his imagined happy childhood is mediated through inane material possessions. Memories were triggered by physical momentos like bunkbeds and even those childhood memories are corrupted by non sequiturs like his contemporary penchant for cigars.

His clumsy attempts at atoning for past sins were initiated with a trail physical artifacts that acted as objects of memory instead. The impact of this on the Hayward family was catastrophic

Even the story about his father in The Return focused more on the bike than his father's endearment. He has achieved the materialist cocoon he sought throughout S1+2 but now it is his prison and purgatory in which he stews in his own guilt.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

I think the story was weak but agree the arc was strong but could have been so much stronger. Its strength was mainly down to the actor and the intriguing possibilities of the storylines hinted at which, imo, all ultimately fell flat as they all went unresolved. I'm fine with a few strands in that one arc being left unresolved, to mimic realism, but all of them? No thanks. Yet I'm here talking about it - so it was obviously memorable at least.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
JackwithOneEye
Great Northern Member
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by JackwithOneEye »

Histeria wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:24 am I thought Ben's story was a wonderfully infuriating slice-of-life story that was one of the stronger arcs in S3.

A man tormented by guilt, the grievances of a childhood deficit in paternal support, and the materialist replacements that he's surrounded himself with since adolescence.

Throughout the original series, Ben's nostalgia for his imagined happy childhood is mediated through inane material possessions. Memories were triggered by physical momentos like bunkbeds and even those childhood memories are corrupted by non sequiturs like his contemporary penchant for cigars.

His clumsy attempts at atoning for past sins were initiated with a trail physical artifacts that acted as objects of memory instead. The impact of this on the Hayward family was catastrophic

Even the story about his father in The Return focused more on the bike than his father's endearment. He has achieved the materialist cocoon he sought throughout S1+2 but now it is his prison and purgatory in which he stews in his own guilt.
I agree 100%.
LateReg
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by LateReg »

Histeria wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:24 am I thought Ben's story was a wonderfully infuriating slice-of-life story that was one of the stronger arcs in S3.

A man tormented by guilt, the grievances of a childhood deficit in paternal support, and the materialist replacements that he's surrounded himself with since adolescence.

Throughout the original series, Ben's nostalgia for his imagined happy childhood is mediated through inane material possessions. Memories were triggered by physical momentos like bunkbeds and even those childhood memories are corrupted by non sequiturs like his contemporary penchant for cigars.

His clumsy attempts at atoning for past sins were initiated with a trail physical artifacts that acted as objects of memory instead. The impact of this on the Hayward family was catastrophic

Even the story about his father in The Return focused more on the bike than his father's endearment. He has achieved the materialist cocoon he sought throughout S1+2 but now it is his prison and purgatory in which he stews in his own guilt.
Great post. What I like about all the arcs and performances in The Return is how they seem to encapsulate the 25 years lost/gone by. It's perfect storytelling imo.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

I guess very few people on here agree with any criticism - even very slight criticism - of The Return. Fair enough. Suffice it to say, from a storytelling point of view, I found much of it very weak, particularly that arc (though Beamer performed it very well). That's not to say I didn't find parts of the execution quite strong overall, and even many flashes of genius and brilliance, hence why I've never considered myself a full-fledged member of the Disappointed Support Group (nor do I think such a group should exist as it regulates all critical opinions to one bastion of the board, leaving things unbalanced, but that's another story). I don't hate it is all I'm saying. Far from it. I still love the world of Twin Peaks, just have a lot of quibbles with the most recent season. I love the show Lost, for example - and I'll moan all day about a lot of their story choices, unresolved and danging plot threads, particularly in the final season, etc. Doesn't mean I don't still think it's great. 8)

With regards to Ben Horne specifically, I just feel there was so much potential there - and it annoys me greatly it went mostly untapped. Maybe that was the point - but even so, I still think it's a shame. I loved the way it was all set up, so much of it was very intriguing - I just feel it petered out, rather than actually going anywhere. That's more than okay, up to a point, but when it comes to stories, I like set-up and at least some pay-off. And - again, this is just my opinion - that arc had none for me.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Stavrogyn
RR Diner Member
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:22 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Stavrogyn »

Great post, Histeria, indeed. This is why this forum is so great: there is always someone who will know how to put into words something I felt while watching the series, and as a result, I get to understand my own feelings provoked by that aspect of the series even better. It is one of the main values of great literature: the ability to tell us something about the world or ourselves which we maybe felt, but were never able to articulate so clearly.
Last edited by Stavrogyn on Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
All those years living the life of someone I didn't even know - Knight of Cups (2015)
User avatar
Histeria
Great Northern Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Histeria »

Jonah wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:40 am I guess very few people on here agree with any criticism - even very slight criticism - of The Return. Fair enough. Suffice it to say, from a storytelling point of view, I found much of it very weak, particularly that arc (though Beamer performed it very well). That's not to say I didn't find parts of the execution quite strong overall.
I accept your criticism and consider it just as valid (at the very least!) as my praise for this aspect of the season. I just disagree with it :mrgreen:

I'm sure there's stuff about it you loved that just completely alienated many members here. I find that highly valuable.

That's not to say I didn't find it deeply unsatisfying upon first viewing. I remember (midway through the first watch) being stunned at how glorious a waste of an opportunity it was to make a 3rd season and bring everybody back against all odds.

But I've come to appreciate it more and more as time went on. The second viewing was a revelation.
Stavrogyn wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:50 am Great post, Histeria, indeed. This is why this forum is so great: there is always someone who will know how to put into words something I felt while watching the series, and as a result, I will get to understand my own feelings provoked by that aspect of the series even better. It is one of the main values of great literature: the ability to tell us something about the world or ourselves which we maybe felt, but were never able to articulate so clearly.
The most curious thing about this show is how I'll read an interpretation and scream internally from how strongly I rejected it


Then, in the middle of responding to the piece, I find my imagination branching out from their writing into all sorts of glorious new directions I hadn't considered consciously but had been percolating as abstract feelings in the back of the mind, like you say.

So now what I do when I disagree with a piece of analysis is actively try and develop it further and find evidence to back it. I usually end up far from where they started yet also acres away from where I started, with sudden a sudden sense of clarity and understanding that's hard to describe.
Last edited by Histeria on Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Stavrogyn
RR Diner Member
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:22 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Stavrogyn »

Jonah wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:40 am I guess very few people on here agree with any criticism - even very slight criticism - of The Return.
I have some criticisms of my own regarding The Return, and I understand your opinion and very much respect it. I just don't feel the same way regarding this certain thing, but a hundred different people will like a hundred different things, especially in art, so that is completely normal and fine :)
All those years living the life of someone I didn't even know - Knight of Cups (2015)
User avatar
NormoftheAndes
RR Diner Member
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:00 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Yes, Richard Beymer was excellent. I really liked Ashley Judd too. I wouldn't say any of their scenes were weak, nor would I describe them even as stories. All we really get are glimpses into their existence - which is quite something when The Return runs 17 hours!

The Return isn't about storylines, I'd struggle to find a complete story told from start to finish during the course of 'season 3' at all in fact. Whilst I think Mark Frost could have been enthusiastic about having more clear narrative strands in The Return, I see it as he compromised with Lynch who wanted to go the INLAND EMPIRE route and have lots of vignettes, dead ends and mere glimpses into lots of different character's lives. His Secret History/ Final Dossier books included fleshing out of various possible storylines. For what its worth, I would have rather liked the content of those books being integrated into the overall shape of the series - either directly or more vaguely, to offer more backstory. I woud argue that The Return feels lacking in some sort of depth that backstory and substance would have provided (which there was a lot of in the original show) but then this season was so GODDAMN dreamlike, one could argue does it necessitate that sort of depth and story?
Teetotaling and prayer. Their hands touch yours and mine.
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

Histeria wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:51 am I accept your criticism and consider it just as valid (at the very least!) as my praise for this aspect of the season. I just disagree with it :mrgreen:
I'm sure there's stuff about it you loved that just completely alienated many members here. I find that highly valuable.
Stavrogyn wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:54 am I have some criticisms of my own regarding The Return, and I understand your opinion and very much respect it. I just don't feel the same way regarding this certain thing, but a hundred different people will like a hundred different things, especially in art, so that is completely normal and fine :)
Oh, I know, I wasn't aiming my response at anyone in particular - just grumbling a bit into the void and phrased things perhaps in a way that sounded too defensive. I respect all of your guy's opinions. I don't see my view as any more valid than anyone else's. It's just my view.
Histeria wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:51 am That's not to say I didn't find it deeply unsatisfying upon first viewing. I remember (midway through the first watch) being stunned at how glorious a waste of an opportunity it was to make a 3rd season and bring everybody back against all odds.
But I've come to appreciate it more and more as time went on. The second viewing was a revelation.
You see, I still feel exactly like that - though, yes, subsequent rewatches definitely improved things for me. For example, I thoroughly hated Part 18 on first viewing - now I rather like it and consider it, along with 1-4 and 16 and 17, among the very best parts. The overall feeling of disappointment, of untapped storytelling potential - with regards specifically to the characters and the setting - still rankles me, I must admit. And I do feel that view - by now - is mostly unclouded by nostaliga. Yes, I had hoped for a more 90's-feeling TP Season 3, I freely admit that (though not necessarily the coffee and donuts - as The Return did have ample amounts of both to make those doling out that particular criticism seem misplaced to me), but putting that aside, I still feel - perhaps it's my writer brain - much more could have been done with the character's stories. Frankly, for me, I felt we got very little. There's a lot of stunning visuals, great sequences, but I feel the storylines for the returning characters - aside from maybe a couple - were frankly rudimentary at best and felt like they'd been quickly churned out with not much thought (that's not to say that's what happened - it's just how it appeared to me, not meaning to criticize Lynch or Frost's writing as such, just my impression) - Audrey as a hairdresser (the original plan), Shelley's whole arc, the repetitive (literally - scenes repeat) Nadine and Dr. Amp stuff... Those parts annoys me only because I feel they could have done so much more with those characters (and the ones we never got to see). Not necessarily happy endings - as much as I loved the one Norma and Ed got - but just much more interesting storylines overall. The Season 3 ones didn't work for me.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
User avatar
Stavrogyn
RR Diner Member
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:22 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Stavrogyn »

Jonah wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:00 am I still feel - perhaps it's my writer brain - much more could have been done with the character's stories.
The Return actually influenced my own writer brain so much that at some point I realized that I have found an excuse and an even stronger inclination to write in that slice of life kind of way where backstory isn't necessarily explained and there is no real conclusion.
All those years living the life of someone I didn't even know - Knight of Cups (2015)
User avatar
Jonah
Global Moderator
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 am

Re: Season 4? Or is it over after this? Wisteria/Unrecorded Night? Something else? (Speculation thread.)

Post by Jonah »

NormoftheAndes wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:59 am The Return isn't about storylines, I'd struggle to find a complete story told from start to finish during the course of 'season 3' at all in fact. Whilst I think Mark Frost could have been enthusiastic about having more clear narrative strands in The Return, I see it as he compromised with Lynch who wanted to go the INLAND EMPIRE route and have lots of vignettes, dead ends and mere glimpses into lots of different character's lives. His Secret History/ Final Dossier books included fleshing out of various possible storylines. For what its worth, I would have rather liked the content of those books being integrated into the overall shape of the series - either directly or more vaguely, to offer more backstory. I woud argue that The Return feels lacking in some sort of depth that backstory and substance would have provided (which there was a lot of in the original show) but then this season was so GODDAMN dreamlike, one could argue does it necessitate that sort of depth and story?
Well said. Yeah, maybe that's the problem I have connecting with it - it's not really about storylines and I wanted it to be. I have to say, though, I didn't think much of some of the ideas Frost came up with in his books either. Admittedly, I've only skimmed them thus far - but I'm familiar with the stories themselves and didn't like his outcome for many characters (e.g. Donna, Audrey). So even if he had fleshed those particular storylines out in the show itself they might not have worked for me either. That's what it probably just comes down to here - not even a commentary on the show's merit, just a simple disconnect between me and it at certain points. And that's fine. It happens. I just wish it hadn't happened for me with Twin Peaks.

Also, I think we should be careful, though - while I like your comment and respect it very much - we should be careful sometimes not to too readily dismiss criticism (not mine, just in general) of weak storytelling by saying "the point is there are no stories, this is just glimpses into lives." I'm not saying that's the case here as by and large, I agree with you in this particular instance, but it can be very easy to use that as an excuse for poor storytelling. I could easily tell my editor when she points out a flaw in my plotting "Oh well, don't worry about that, the plot isn't the point, it's just a glimpse at what the character's are doing in that scene, who cares if it doesn't connect with what I set up earlier?" But, again, perhaps I'm looking at The Return too strongly through those lenses - it's been drummed into me at this point so much that I re-read through my own stuff constantly looking for holes - and I should perhaps relax on that angle a bit. Having said all that, though, I'm sorry - I really am - I still think a lot of the storytelling in The Return is weak. I accept it's an anti-story incarnation of the show for the most part, but I still think they could have come up with better for the characters. Just my take.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
Post Reply