Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

It’s difficult for me to think of another film made within my lifetime that has undergone such a complex critical evolution (on both a macro and micro level) as FWWM. My respect for it has for sure grown and changed over the years. As I’ve said before, the baggage of shoe-horning in the Theresa Banks prologue and other mythology stuff (as well as the rather goofy/cliche angel motif) put me off on initial viewings. But at no point, ever, have I not been affected and stunned by the Laura scenes and Lee’s performance. Her vulnerability, pathos, comedic timing, hardboiled noir delivery, and just fucking raw pain have blown me away every time I have ever watched the film. It’s such a layered performance that for me just hits every single beat. It might be the best lead performance in any Lynch film, although it’s tough to compare to Naomi (MD), Dern (IE), and Jack (Eraserhead)...I can’t choose. But Sheryl is in the pantheon for sure, and it’s just so hard to sympathize with anyone who can’t see how brilliant she is here, and how much of herself she gave to the art. I guess there’s an argument that she oversold it, but as that Usenet responder said, it’s an INCREDIBLY extreme experience Laura is living which most of us can’t possibly envision. This is always tough area to tread as an actor (and also a complaint people have made about Jennifer’s writing in TSDoLP, that it crossed over into melodrama). For me though, there just isn’t a single moment in that performance that feels false. And again, it’s a LAYERED performance. She isn’t screaming and crying and pounding the walls for two hours straight. She is by turns hilariously funny and sexy and nihilistic and at times a complete asshole. There is SO much going on, it’s just crazy to me to reduce her performance to “tear filled histrionics.” That feels like a gross mischaracterization or oversimplification.
LateReg
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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Mr. Reindeer wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:18 pm It’s difficult for me to think of another film made within my lifetime that has undergone such a complex critical evolution (on both a macro and micro level) as FWWM. My respect for it has for sure grown and changed over the years. As I’ve said before, the baggage of shoe-horning in the Theresa Banks prologue and other mythology stuff (as well as the rather goofy/cliche angel motif) put me off on initial viewings. But at no point, ever, have I not been affected and stunned by the Laura scenes and Lee’s performance. Her vulnerability, pathos, comedic timing, hardboiled noir delivery, and just fucking raw pain have blown me away every time I have ever watched the film. It’s such a layered performance that for me just hits every single beat. It might be the best lead performance in any Lynch film, although it’s tough to compare to Naomi (MD), Dern (IE), and Jack (Eraserhead)...I can’t choose. But Sheryl is in the pantheon for sure, and it’s just so hard to sympathize with anyone who can’t see how brilliant she is here, and how much of herself she gave to the art. I guess there’s an argument that she oversold it, but as that Usenet responder said, it’s an INCREDIBLY extreme experience Laura is living which most of us can’t possibly envision. This is always tough area to tread as an actor (and also a complaint people have made about Jennifer’s writing in TSDoLP, that it crossed over into melodrama). For me though, there just isn’t a single moment in that performance that feels false. And again, it’s a LAYERED performance. She isn’t screaming and crying and pounding the walls for two hours straight. She is by turns hilariously funny and sexy and nihilistic and at times a complete asshole. There is SO much going on, it’s just crazy to me to reduce her performance to “tear filled histrionics.” That feels like a gross mischaracterization or oversimplification.
For my part, the glue that holds the movie together isn't necessarily Lee, but rather the strongest sequences - be they dreamlike or visceral - which I've always thought were among the best of Lynch's career.

I don't want to derail this wonderful thread, but really quickly, given your admission that Lee's performance has never once felt false to you, I have to ask you about two lines in particular, and I bet you can guess which they are, and if you can, I wonder if that means or might reveal something. While this doesn't all come down to Lee's performance - certainly both the writing and direction are culprits, too - I'm curious how you feel about the vulnerable turkey in the corn and the emphatic I LOVE YOU JAMES moments. There's varying degrees of extreme emotion in both of those moments, and both can easily be read as equally cringe-worthy and powerful, maybe at the same time. These are moments that have always moved me as much as they've made me question everything about what I'm watching. I'm not doubting that you have always been able to viscerally feel and lose yourself in these moments, but I am wondering if you've ever doubted them as others have?
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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Heh, I almost guessed the lines! I went with “gobble gobble” though, as opposed to the tee-up line you mentioned. I mostly “blame” the writing for both—if we can agree that there is blame to be placed (and I’m as mixed as you on that front), but I don’t think anyone could have done any better than Lee did with the scripted material. It’s awful writing from a technical standpoint, but also feels totally consistent with what a teenager might say. Equally, Sheryl’s delivery to me feels honest to the way an extremely damaged high school student would say those words. So, yeah, it’s unconventional in terms of what we expect of “good” writing and acting, but feels far more honest to watching a teenager speak than Degrassi or most other pop culture depictions.

And I’m sure there are many similar wonky deliveries we could pull from Nance in Eraserhead or Watts in ABC pilot MD that are equally cringey/weird/divisive. Lynch loves extreme performances.

“I’m the muffin” from TMP is one where I feel Sheryl doesn’t quite nail it, BTW. But that, again, is a REALLY tough thing to hand an actor. She does it ok, but I think cutting a few frames off the prelude to the line would have helped. (Editing is important too.)
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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Just to add to the above: looking at the film now. The camera is on James (reverse on Sheryl, out of of focus and mostly out of frame) for “turkey in the corn.” Her line delivery is adequate. “Gobble gobble” breaks my fucking heart. Has no right to be as good as it is. You can attack the writing if you want, but I challenge anyone to act that line more convincingly than Sheryl Lee does.
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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The entire turkey in the corn exchange, including gobble gobble, is what I was referring to. Very tricky stuff. There seems to be some extreme level of...I don't even know how to describe it. They're going for something there, something obviously awful on some level, parodic on another, challenging emotional responses on another, sincere on another, etc.
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LateReg wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:54 pm The entire turkey in the corn exchange, including gobble gobble, is what I was referring to. Very tricky stuff. There seems to be some extreme level of...I don't even know how to describe it. They're going for something there, something obviously awful on some level, parodic on another, challenging emotional responses on another, sincere on another, etc.
The lip trembles, the tears, the darting eyes....I don’t know. I can see an argument that the material they gave Lee was inherently awful (not saying I agree; but I’ll entertain it). But I cannot see any flaw whatsoever in how she performs the script she was given. It is really moving, more than it has any right to be.
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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That's what I'm saying, what makes it so odd - the commitment, the honesty, the tragedy, the tears...all in service to a line that can easily be seen as utterly ridiculous. That's what I mean about how they're going for something that almost challenges emotional response, whether intentionally or otherwise.
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Mr. Reindeer
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LateReg wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:10 pm That's what I'm saying, what makes it so odd - the commitment, the honesty, the tragedy, the tears...all in service to a line that can easily be seen as utterly ridiculous. That's what I mean about how they're going for something that almost challenges emotional response, whether intentionally or otherwise.
That’s fair, but nothing you’re saying is a condemnation of the performance. If anything, you seem to be agreeing that she elevates the potentially questionable written material. If you’re handed a line as an actor, even a silly one, you have to do something with it. What Sheryl does in that scene is, IMO, stunning.
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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Mr. Reindeer wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:14 pm
LateReg wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:10 pm That's what I'm saying, what makes it so odd - the commitment, the honesty, the tragedy, the tears...all in service to a line that can easily be seen as utterly ridiculous. That's what I mean about how they're going for something that almost challenges emotional response, whether intentionally or otherwise.
That’s fair, but nothing you’re saying is a condemnation of the performance. If anything, you seem to be agreeing that she elevates the potentially questionable written material. If you’re handed a line as an actor, even a silly one, you have to do something with it. What Sheryl does in that scene is, IMO, stunning.
Yes, that's right. I'm not posing any personal opinions of judgment or anything. Just a neutral sort of interrogation of the scene as a whole. If anything I'm claiming that the questionable aspect is itself self-aware, seemingly, from the writing to the lighting to the music etc. I didn't mean to make it seem like criticism. It's more so curiosity.
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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I always remember the Lynch/Engels origin story (per Engels): they were supposed to meet up at 2:30 and Engels said, “That’s when the Chinese go to the dentist!” (“Tooth hurty”) Lynch thought that was hilarious and they became “Mike and Ike.” There seems to a dopey quality to some of the writing they did together (see the “Goodnight Irene” reference that got mostly chopped from FWWM). Like Pete and Andrew Packard, they seemed to share a somewhat sophomoric (On the Air-type) aesthetic that the final product thankfully mostly fights against...or when it does creep in, the film ends up working in spite of itself. The Leland “where’s my ax” deleted scene is another example of something that’s awful on paper, but all three actors are so great they sell the hell out of it.
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Oh. BTW, “turkey in the corn” is a reference to a classic blues song by Lightnin’ Hopkins: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2yd3DRhAI0

Not sure if that’s common knowledge or not. Or if it makes the scene better or worse. I guess it arguably makes the dialogue less scattershot in some way but also in a way even sillier: 1989 teen making a cultural reference to something she would never be aware of if she weren’t being scripted by middle-aged men (a la the Brando/One-Eyed Jack’s exchange in the series).

I guess you could argue Leland listened to the song at home, which actually gives it a LOT of resonance. But he always seemed to be more of a “swing and show tunes” kinda guy. Hmmm. I could see Sarah being a blues fan?
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Re: Alt.Tv.TwinPeaks - Twin Peaks Usenet Archive

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If Lynch is no longer collaborating with Frost, do you think he'd bring Engels or someone in to help him co-write Unrecorded Night, whether or not it's TP? I think he's probably going it alone from now on, but I do recall him saying writing wasn't his strongest suit (?) or he didn't like it as much, something like that (?).

I also wonder if the fact that the copyright filings have already been made means the scripts are actually completed, or just planned/sketched out.
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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Based on the copyrights, it doesnt look like there's a credited co writer on Unrecorded.

Re length... Back in the analogue days, copyright public catalog would list the amount of pages something was under description. i.e. if you look at the 1999 copyright of Mulholland Drive screenplay, it says 92 pages. the Lost Highway screenplay, copyrighted November 15th, 1995, is 114 pages.

the new way is to upload files/e service, and page lengths no longer listed.
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Does a work have to be completed to be copyrighted or is it possible only partial scripts/treatments are done with lots of room for improv - or first script complete and the rest just treatments/ideas?
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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i've seen partial scripts/treatments copyrighted by uber-paranoid people who think at every step of the pitching process there are thieves abound who are eager to steal their material, or whatever office they send it to, will claim credit. the more patient person usually waits until they have a finished draft and not pay fees over and over.
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