What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jasper wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:57 am
enumbs wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:26 am I remember people around the time of broadcast talking about the scene as though it was a conventional love scene, and that it’s disturbing quality was the inadvertent result of the mismatched pairing and Lynch’s bad direction.
OK, now that interpretation is just objectively wrong. :lol:

As far as anyone feeling like they never, ever needed to see Cooper this way, I completely and totally understand. The scene is very disturbing. It's interesting how it can be contrasted with the "Dougie" and Janey-E sex scene, especially considering that both men are actually Cooper and that Diane and Janey-E are sisters!
Haha very good observations. I think its one of the most important scenes in The Return (the return of My Prayer cinches that) and arguably the most disturbing (consensual) sex scene ever filmed, but what I recall about many of the complaints/accusations was the notion that Lynch just wanted to film a sex scene with Kyle and Laura (Dern, that is) and that was that, and therefore that the scene had no value or weight, that it would have been better with Audrey, etc. I think some fans couldn't get past the scene including Diane and accused Lynch of a pervy favoritism towards Dern, which is not something I'd ever felt as the scene and players always felt "right" to me for various narrative, thematic and, yes, meta reasons.
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underthefan
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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I've always thought of that scene as a sex magick ritual meant to invoke Judy (similar to Sam and Tracy in the first part). Ultimately it was about Diane's trauma due to Mr C's rape and her inability to move past it so it was very much meant to be as disturbing and upsetting as it is.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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underthefan wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:09 am I've always thought of that scene as a sex magick ritual meant to invoke Judy (similar to Sam and Tracy in the first part). Ultimately it was about Diane's trauma due to Mr C's rape and her inability to move past it so it was very much meant to be as disturbing and upsetting as it is.
Yes I think that's all true, powerfully so as a marker of Diane's trauma and Cooper being at the root of it as the scene also makes clear that Coop and Mr. C (and Dougie, given the mirroring of his previous sex scene, as Jasper points out) are one and the same through the merging of his identities. That first part about sex magick summoning Judy is interesting because that ties the sex scene back to the glass box, which supposedly disappears from the narrative halfway through Part 1, but really hangs over all 18 Parts.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Brad D wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 5:38 pm My primary issue with The Return (among many) was the legion of tertiary characters that pop in for a scene or two and disappear. Many of them were intriguing at first sight, but there turned out to be no arc, no journey, no nothing. Same with the glass box and Hastings. I have no issue with all the action lingering on out of town, but there was just no story to invest in for me. Mr. C was by far my favorite part of the show, and even he wasn’t honored with an end game.

Part 17 did me in, and I don’t think I was ready to consume pt 18 properly with that horrid taste in my mouth. Maybe, maybe it’s time to give that last part a separate chance... but then again I’m not sure I wish to see Coop and Diane do it again. There’s my unpopular opinion... lol

I completely agree with your unpopular opinion about the characters in season 3. I felt the original did a much better job of helping the viewer feel like they knew everyone and their lives. The original had characters that were easy to remember all with a rich backstory. I find it hard to have an emotional attachment to most of the characters in season 3. Like you said most of the new characters have no arc and little to invest in. Even most of the returning characters felt without substance. I know Shelly way more from the original compared to what I would know about Shelly from just watching the Return. I know Lynch did this on purpose but I still didn't enjoy it.

Also agree with your 1st post when you returned to this board after a few years break. You said you had to take a break from members always shooting down anything and everything slightly negative said about Lynch and Twin Peaks. Sadly that happens here all the time still, even in the unpopular thread.

You mentioned not enjoying part 17, I personally quite like part 17. Instead of defending my popular opinion and trying to prove you wrong, I would like to know more about what you didn't like about episode 17? Was it the old footage? The storyline?

And I think you should try watching the entire Return again rather than just part 18. I think any re-watch whether just part 18 or all of season 3, will be enjoyed more than the 1st time watching.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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It's definitely better when you rewatch it. I think a lot of people who were very disappointed in it might find it less disappointing on rewatch once those initial strong feelings have dissipated a bit and/or you no longer are hoping/wishing it was something else (which I had been in those first few episodes), you can appreciate it more for what it is and enjoy some parts and let others just brush by you.

Just to clarify, based on my earlier comments some might think I'm in the dislike group, but I'm not. I was always in the mixed leaning towards like group, and that's mostly simply "like" now. However, I do have some qualms about it (I also have some issues with the original series too, mainly the middle stretch of S2, and I don't entirely love S1 either) - mainly the two gripes I mentioned in my last post. But I appreciate it for what it is. It's not the revival I had hoped for for years, and I do think it should have stayed focused more in the town and on the original characters, but despite those feelings, I do like it and accept it for what it is. I completely understand why some may dislike or hate it, though. I do think the original series was far better. The Return has flashes of genius and I love how unique it is and how its very much its own thing, but I don't quite think of it as Season 3. It really is just its own thing imo.
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LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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TwinsPeak wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:55 am Also agree with your 1st post when you returned to this board after a few years break. You said you had to take a break from members always shooting down anything and everything slightly negative said about Lynch and Twin Peaks. Sadly that happens here all the time still, even in the unpopular thread.
I'm sorry if I missed something, but I don't see any evidence of that taking place in this thread. Did I miss something? I see people having conversations and talking about what works vs. what doesn't, sometimes in the hope that what they share might offer a different point of view through which to appreciate the series. As far as I can tell, no one is merely shooting down anything/everything negative -- they're offering different points of view that arise from alternate understandings of the material. I can't tell you how many times I had overlooked something only to hear someone respond to a criticism of mine that led me to a greater understanding. I think that sort of back and forth is the ultimate point of these discussions.

I was a big poster in the Profoundly Disappointed thread, partly because that was where many of the most interesting conversations were taking place -- conversations that challenged my assumptions, alerted me to other points of view, and led to me to a greater personal understanding of the material and its place in the vaster world encompassing critics and fans and expectations. I even engaged with the most fiery and negative of all posters at that time, who repeatedly said they enjoyed debating the material with me in a civil manner. Not all posters welcomed such a back-and-forth, which I found to be damaging and pointless. I understood that the Profoundly Disappointed thread was supposed to be a place where fans could find solace, but I never saw the value of having an echo chamber of negativity when some of that negativity might be easily relieved by simply talking about what certain artistic decisions might mean.

But, this Unpopular Opinion thread is not in any way the equivalent of the Profoundly Disappointed thread. It's a thread made to state some unpopular opinions, but those unpopular opinions aren't an inherently negative thing. While I agree with you that it would be nice for some of us to ask for more insight into the reason behind an opinion, I often feel like enough insight was given to start a discussion, and I also think that's a two-way street, and that if someone of an opposing viewpoint has something to offer to the discussion, then it's better to share it rather than simply clam up. As I stated in an earlier post, sometimes I nod in agreement or disagreement and move on, but other times something is said that I feel I can express a worthwhile opinion on based on my understanding of the material. As in the disappointed thread, I think any place that offers an opportunity to engage in discussion is a good place to have that discussion. Just because one poster dislikes something and another responds with positive insight doesn't mean they're simply shooting down anything negative. But again, I'm sorry if I missed the specifics of where you're coming from.
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AXX°N N.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Actually, LateReg, this thread specifically feels like it should be more about sharing, and debate is better served elsewhere.

Regarding the recent topic of 'minor characters who go nowhere,' though, I wouldn't press back except that I found the coincidence interesting; I'm reading a book about Kabbalah from a poetic standpoint instead of a theological one, and this quote stood out:

"In narratives that challenge our ideas of what makes a modern story, characters evolve in a bewitching and scary realm somewhere between event and insight, at the unnerving center of what we take to be reality."

From ancient texts to Thomas Pynchon, many an early and postmodern narrative have flouted the obligations of character arcs and the much-misunderstood Chekhov's gun. Lynch's interest in Vedic texts & Frost's interest in mysticism clearly influenced the Return, and to me S3 is more on par with that kind of esoteric storytelling than televised serial drama. I think texts teeming with multitudes of characters and dangling threads fail only under the lens of a method they're not even using, and that it's merely a different aesthetic philosophy at play. That style draws me to things instead of repulses me.

I understand someone having the preference where they dislike S3 because the old TP was more conventionally plotted, though. And especially if they entered the thread not interested in hearing out counterpoint.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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If the first episode of The Return only featured 45 mins of footage of a pigeon sitting in a tree overlooking Dr. Amp's trailer, I am sure some people would have looked for (and found) meaning in that too. Ie, Lynch steps out of his comfort zone of the traditional narrative.

For me personally a spade is a spade though.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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As someone who heavily disliked Turin Horse, I wouldn't have been one of them.

But I am someone who resents when someone else thinks they can assume my character based on very little.
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LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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AXX°N N. wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 11:58 am Actually, LateReg, this thread specifically feels like it should be more about sharing, and debate is better served elsewhere.
True. But, for what it's worth, part of what I was actually getting at is that I not only don't mind but absolutely love it when threads go off-topic and into more interesting discussion than what the thread had promised. I've just never had a problem with the derailment of threads in that regard, but I understand that others do.

AXX°N N. wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 11:58 am
"In narratives that challenge our ideas of what makes a modern story, characters evolve in a bewitching and scary realm somewhere between event and insight, at the unnerving center of what we take to be reality."

From ancient texts to Thomas Pynchon, many an early and postmodern narrative have flouted the obligations of character arcs and the much-misunderstood Chekhov's gun. Lynch's interest in Vedic texts & Frost's interest in mysticism clearly influenced the Return, and to me S3 is more on par with that kind of esoteric storytelling than televised serial drama. I think texts teeming with multitudes of characters and dangling threads fail only under the lens of a method they're not even using, and that it's merely a different aesthetic philosophy at play. That style draws me to things instead of repulses me.

I understand someone having the preference where they dislike S3 because the old TP was more conventionally plotted, though. And especially if they entered the thread not interested in hearing out counterpoint.
I had stopped short of saying that earlier when I spoke of The Return not being interested in obeying the normal rules of storytelling, characterization, etc. Specifically, I erased a sentence saying that any attempt to judge the work according to such rules...won't end well. Which, as you say, does not mean that you can't dislike it based on its new approach or think that it failed within this new approach.

PS - I love The Turin Horse. As well as Benning's 10 Skies and 13 Lakes, which consist of nothing more than lengthy shots of...10 Skies and 13 Lakes. :D
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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This is the reddit thread that gave me the idea for this thread -

https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... r_opinion/

Some interesting comments. Here's a few I thought were thought-provoking:

agenteb27: Making Josie a doorknob was genius.

nflez: the show is better off for having revealed who killed laura. it would have been better had it been done organically and not left mid-season to fall off a cliff quality-wise, but the series would be so much worse without the definitive ending and characterization that s2e7 and fire walk with me gave her. the reveal allowed twin peaks to step beyond just laura palmer’s story while also ensuring she was more than a plot device.

JeanImOnlyGenie: The restraints of mainstream television made the series more compelling. The uneasy tone, mesmerizing images and compelling characters which Lynch & Frost were able to get through on plain old tv makes it all the more amazing. The Return is a powerful piece of art, but was made for premium cable and doesn’t have the ‘how did they get away with this?’ quality.

sickmoth: I like all of it. I don't skip anything. Seasons 1 and 2 were created by many writers and directors, not just Frost and Lynch. Those who think it's all about Lynch are way off.

fatdiscokid: Season 2 Ben Horne civil war subplot is the best subplot in all of television

SaintFu23: I believe that David Lynch and Mark Frost have very different (although not mutually exclusive) views of what Twin Peaks is about. Without overstating the difference, I think I prefer Frost's version to Lynch's.

makomore: The Diane Keaton episode IS the point in season 2 where the show noticeably picks back up in quality. It’s NOT the low point.

l_mutable: The Frost books are boring and not very well written.

blankcheckvote44: Revealing Laura Palmer's killer was the right thing to do (both morally and narratively), and it probably should have happened sooner.

jameshurleysforehead: Season 3 could do without a lot of the music acts.

ManAze5447: The Return was a better retrospective of David Lynch’s career then a continuation on Twin Peaks.

internetrando12: Super Nadine is Super Hilarious.
Last edited by Jonah on Sat May 22, 2021 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LateReg
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:28 pm
fatdiscokid: Season 2 Ben Horne civil war subplot is the best subplot in all of television
I mean...fatdiscokid might be a genius. This is something to think about.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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LateReg wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:25 am
underthefan wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:09 am I've always thought of that scene as a sex magick ritual meant to invoke Judy (similar to Sam and Tracy in the first part). Ultimately it was about Diane's trauma due to Mr C's rape and her inability to move past it so it was very much meant to be as disturbing and upsetting as it is.
Yes I think that's all true, powerfully so as a marker of Diane's trauma and Cooper being at the root of it as the scene also makes clear that Coop and Mr. C (and Dougie, given the mirroring of his previous sex scene, as Jasper points out) are one and the same through the merging of his identities. That first part about sex magick summoning Judy is interesting because that ties the sex scene back to the glass box, which supposedly disappears from the narrative halfway through Part 1, but really hangs over all 18 Parts.
Agreed, I think the idea is the force us to face the uncomfortable and unpleasant idea that Mr. C IS a part of Cooper (his id, if you will), and not a being separate from him. It feels like a lot of The Return is actually about destroying our idea of Cooper as a benevolent hero we can root for/look up to.
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:28 pm makomore: The Diane Keaton episode IS the point in season 2 where the show noticeably picks back up in quality. It’s NOT the low point.


internetrando12: Super Nadine is Super Hilarious.
Interesting to see my own picks reflected. :o
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Re: What is your Twin Peaks unpopular opinion?

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Jonah wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:28 pm fatdiscokid: Season 2 Ben Horne civil war subplot is the best subplot in all of television
I always loved that subplot, found it funny, and would have never guessed it was considered bad if I hadn't been going through some debates on the Internet. I especially liked how Ben imagined he was Robert E. Lee, which I found more funny and interesting than if the writers had chosen someone more predictable, like, for example, Abraham Lincoln.
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